Prabhupada: …Brahmananda explain. Trying for sense gratification. They do not know it, that what is the purpose of life.

Brahmananda: That is their ignorance.

Prabhupada: So our mission is to eradicate this ignorance, that they are living in a wrong conception of life. That is the point. The human society is making so-called progress under wrong conception of life. What is the answer? Therefore they have been described as mudha because they are living in a wrong conception, animal life. Wherefrom you have come?

Vasughosa: Kathmandu. Tonight I will go to Hyderabad. I am collecting money. But one thing I find even when we explain to these people, you know… Just like smoking cigarettes. In Kathmandu I was explaining to people, “What kind of enjoyment is this from smoking cigarettes? You are coughing…” This is the way Acyutananda Swami also describes, so I picked up from him. “You are coughing. You are killing yourself.” He also described like this, “Intoxication means poison. Toxic means poison. So this is intoxication. You are actually administering poison. What kind of sanity is this?” So all those people, they told me, “Well, I’ll give up cigarettes later.”

Prabhupada: At least they admit the fault, hm? Do they?

Vasughosa: Yes, some people… One hippie I was talking to, he was saying, “I believe in technology and Darwin’s theory of evolution.” So I said, “The greatest technologists in America have said that cigarettes can kill you. Why are you smoking these cigarettes?” He said, “Yes, I want to give it up,” but then he kept on smoking. And to Indian people I explained about karma, you know, “according to your activity,” and they all admit, “Yes, there is karma.” So I said, “Why don’t you serve Krsna?” They said, “Later, later.” They all say like that.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Dhrstaketu: So, your instructions in Srimad-Bhagavatam can stop their lust? It can stop… By hearing from Vedic authorities, their lust can be dissolved? Or do they have to just simply be frustrated in their attempts to enjoy sense gratification?

Prabhupada: They are being frustrated. Who is successful in the material world? Have you got any instance that he is successful? (pause) Then?

Vasughosa: In every field someone is miserable. Just in America there was one lady, very famous etiquette expert, Amy Vanderbilt. So she jumped out of her window. She was sixty-nine years old.

Prabhupada: There are many. I saw in Detroit, I think. The bridge is covered?

Brahmananda: San Francisco. The Golden Gate Bridge they have put…

Prabhupada: Not Golden Gate. That San Diego, I think. We crossed one bridge to go to the…

Brahmananda: Oh, yes, San Diego also. They have these fences so when people jump off they are caught by the fences. (laughter)

Prabhupada: And I think in Berkeley? The tower?

Brahmananda: Oh, yes. In the college university they have a big clock tower…

Prabhupada: These are the signs how they are disappointed. They are always ready to commit suicide. So where is success?

Vasughosa: They are practically committing suicide by their activities.

Prabhupada: That is also another side. But practically you see.

Vasughosa: Hm. But by this smoking cigarettes, meat-eating… I mean, we explain to them that doctors have found that meat-eating…

Prabhupada: I have seen about some thirty years ago, one man was sitting… I was traveling in the railway apartment, and all of a sudden he jumped through the window.

Devotees: Whew!

Prabhupada: All of a sudden. He was sitting nicely. What he was thinking I do not know. But he took the opportunity of open window and jumped. I have seen.

Indian man (1): A kind of insanity overpowered him.

Prabhupada: Insanity… everyone is overpowered by insanity, anyone in this material world and who is trying to be happy. Everyone is in insanity. They are trying to different way. They do not know the only solution is, as Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sarana… [Bg. 18.66]. That they do not, neither they’ll accept.

Vasughosa: Especially Indian people, you know, they say, “Well, if I surrender to Krsna, who will feed me?”

Prabhupada: No, no, Indian, American, everyone. Why you are, American, you are so proud of your…?

Vasughosa: No. (laughter) No, but because in India people know that they should surrender to Krsna, no?

Prabhupada: But you also know.

Vasughosa: But the general mass, I mean, of Americans, they don’t understand.

Prabhupada: These are faulty, fault-finding. It is no good. Everyone. Krsna did not say for Indian or American. For everyone. But at the present moment Indians are misled that they have been, I mean to say, induced to think that if they become like American or Western people they will be happy. That is misleading.

Vasughosa: I was telling them that in America the big thing is they want to raise the standard of living, but then those people who had raised the standard of living, they are also killing themselves. But they don’t want to listen. Actually in Nepal I was reading every day in the paper the king was saying that “Our goal is economic development. That is the top priority. Number-one priority is economic development.”

Prabhupada: Who? Which king?

Vasughosa: King of Nepal, King Birendra. He’s the only Hindu king in the world. He has so many… He is embarking on so many programs of economic development in his country.

Prabhupada: Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. They have been described as “chewing the chewed.” They have no eyes to see that Europe and America, they have developed so much economically, but what is the peace there? They’re jumping quietly. You see? (laughter) They are going to chew the same thing, chewing the chewed.

Passerby: Haribol!

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Dhrstaketu: Does a person have to experience enough frustration to give up this process of…

Prabhupada: Frustration, that already said, that everyone is frustrated. But because they are mudhas they do not know that they are being frustrated. That is the point. Everyone is frustrated.

Dhrstaketu: That goes on perpetually until they receive the mercy of a pure devotee?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Dhrstaketu: That frustration or that…

Prabhupada: Well… Krsna failed to give mercy, and what devotee will do? They are stubborn to stick to their principle. Krsna said personally, sarva-dharman parityajya mam [Bg. 18.66], but who is going to do that? And what the devotees will do?

Vasughosa: If we just engage them in devotional service will they ultimately become purified?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is our mission. Somehow or other go on repeatedly saying.

Vasughosa: Because even that atheist hippie, when he was… after he was talking to me about the cigarettes, then the next morning I sold him a book, so he gave twenty rupees.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the way. Some way or other, induce. [break] Obstinacy. What is that, “dog obstinacy”?

Dhrstaketu: They say, “Stubborn as an ass.”

Prabhupada: Hm. [break] …selling different types of religious system so that one may not have to surrender to Krsna. This is going on.

Vasughosa: Many people were… On the way to… Even on the way to here…

Prabhupada: And big, big swamis are saying, “Yes, whatever you manufacture, it is all right.” Yatha mat tatha path: “Whatever ways you manufacture by concoction, that is all right.” So they are satisfied. If somebody says that “You surrender unto me,” that is not very palatable. If somebody says, “No, you can surrender anywhere,” that is very palatable.

Brahmananda: Because that means no surrender. To surrender anywhere…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: …means no surrender.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: Then they’re satisfied.

Vasughosa: Many people say, “We have to do our karma.” They are telling me, “Do your duty.”

Prabhupada: This is the duty: you surrender to Krsna. This is the only duty.

Vasughosa: They say their family, their wife, their job, their children, all these things.

Brahmananda: Sometimes they say, “When He wills it, then I will do it.” (laughter)

Prabhupada: Yes. This is not willing, when He says that “You do this”?

Vasughosa: They say, “When He makes my heart… When He puts it in my heart, and when He makes my heart open up to Him, then I will…”

Prabhupada: And you have no heart. You have simply stone. (laughter) That is sung by some Vaisnava, that “My heart is harder than the stone, because I know that even the stone melts by chanting Hare Krsna, but my heart does not melt. Therefore I think it is harder than the stone.”

Indian man (2): Once somebody asked Prabhupada Maharaja in Calcutta that “When can you show me Krsna?” Prabhupada Maharaja said that “Here is Krsna. You cannot see because your eyes are stones. They are not the eyes. If you have got the eyes, you can see it here.”

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (2): “And these people have not come to worship stone. They have come to see Krsna, and they are decorating, and they know that Krsna is here.” That at Calcutta, you said.

Prabhupada: Hm. So what did he say?

Indian man (2): Yes, Prabhupada, he accepted immediately.

Brahmananda: Srila Prabhupada, we should return.

Prabhupada: Return? All right. [break] …seen by premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Unless there is love for God, who can see God? Santah sadaiva hrdayesu. One who is lover of God, such saintly person, twenty-four hours he sees simply God, nothing else.

Hari-sauri: [break] …last night, Srila Prabhupada, and he was saying that if everything is ultimately spiritual, if one is spiritually advanced, he sees everything as spiritual. Then if everything is spiritual, then we can carry on just doing the same things that we’re doing now, because it’s all for God.

Prabhupada: No. Krsna says that “Everything is My energy, but…” Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani naham tesu: [Bg. 9.4] “But I am not there.” This is the answer. Everything is Krsna’s expansion, but not that everything is Krsna.

Indian man (2): It is also not spiritual.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Indian man (2): The energy is there, but it is not spiritual.

Prabhupada: No, it is spiritual, but because I do not know Krsna, therefore I see material. Just like this microphone. It is being used for Krsna; therefore it is spiritual. Actually, originally, it is from Krsna. So we are not using these material things. Everything, whatever we using, that is spiritual.

Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, if this is spiritual, spiritual means eternal. But this microphone will fall to pieces.

Prabhupada: Yes, but scientifically it will keep the energy, conservation of energy. Even it is destroyed, it will remain. The material manifestation means bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. It is sometimes destroyed and sometimes manifest. But the energy is there.

Indian man (2): And also remain in different form.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. Just like this is earth. Now you prepare hundreds or thousands of earthen pots and dolls. When it is destroyed, again it is earth. So when it is manifested, it is earth. When it is not manifested, it is earth. So from the spiritual energy of Krsna everything becomes manifested, and therefore originally it is spiritual. Krsna said, bhumir apo ‘nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir…, bhinna me prakrtih: [Bg. 7.4] “It is My prakrti, energy.” So how Krsna’s energy can be material? Because we forget Krsna, therefore it appears material. (Aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. (Hindi) [break] …Mahaprabhu, as soon as He entered the Jagannatha temple He immediately fainted. Did He see the wooden Jagannatha? It is a question of seeing and prepare the eyes to see.

Vasughosa: Once I went to one Gaudiya Matha in South India, and I showed them a picture of our Deities in Hyderabad. They said, “This Krsna is white.” So later on I told that story to Acyutananda Swami, and he said, “Do you know what I tell those people? I say, ‘No, Krsna is not white. You just can’t see Krsna.’ ” So like that, sometimes we are criticized by them for Krsna in the Deity being white. [break]

Hari-sauri: …Krsna’s energy is all-spiritual, then why in Bhagavad-gita does Krsna make a distinction — “My separated material energy”? Why does He say, “separated”?

Prabhupada: Separated… Just like I am talking and this will be reproduced as it is, although it is separated.

Hari-sauri: So He’s not personally present there.

Prabhupada: Yes. When you replay, the same voice will come, but I am not there. So if you want to utilize this separated energy for Krsna consciousness, then it will help you. Just like the Deity. Everyone knows it is stone, but why we are worshiping stone?

Hari-sauri: It is Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. It is as good as Krsna. It is not worshiping the stone. Huh?

Indian man (2): Worship, who are worshiping, it never comes to their mind that it is a stone.

Prabhupada: No. Therefore the… That is the qualification. [break] …qualified, you will see it is spiritual.

Vasughosa: There are some religions that… Especially the one I am born in, they were especially preaching, you know, that “You should never see a graven image of God.”

Prabhupada: Hm?

Vasughosa: “You should never see a graven image of God.”

Prabhupada: Yes, that is required, because you are not competent to see God everywhere.

Vasughosa: No, but they…

Brahmananda: They prohibit.

Vasughosa: They prohibit the worship of this vigraha. They say that “God cannot be made into a graven image.”

Brahmananda: They say it is blasphemy.

Prabhupada: No. Yes, we also say. Although everything is expansion of the energy of Krsna, not that everything is Krsna. That is the difference between Mayavada philosophy and Vaisnava philosophy. Vaisnava philosophy takes everything as expansion of Krsna’s energy. Parasya brahmana saktih. (Aside:) Jaya. Sarvedam akhilam jagat. Everything is expansion of the energy of the Supreme Brahman. Krsna confirms it, maya tatam idam sarvam. Without Krsna, there is no existence. But that does not mean anything existentional is Krsna. That is Mayavada philosophy.

Brahmananda: These religions even say that it is offensive to say the name of God.

Prabhupada: So what can I do? (laughter) If the rascal says something, so what can I do?

Brahmananda: Even when they write the word “God,” they don’t say, “g, o, d.” They say “g, dash,” then “d,” so that they’ve indicated God, but they haven’t said “God.”

Vasughosa: “It’s too holy to pronounce,” that’s what they…

Prabhupada: No, they can say, “G, zero, and d.” (laughter) Zero between g and d. That is a nice explanation.

Devotee (4): Zero signifies their love for Him.

Prabhupada: Yes. Zero is controlling both sides, g and d. Just like if you multiply something by zero, what it becomes?

Brahmananda: Zero.

Prabhupada: That’s all. Sunyavadi.

Vasughosa: [break] …people are following very strictly, how can we preach to them? Some of those people who are following these religions very strictly, how do we preach to them, those people?

Prabhupada: Ask them, “What do you mean by religion?”

Vasughosa: Well, they will say what is in their sastra, their Bible.

Prabhupada: Let them say what is there. Then you can talk with them.

Brahmananda: They say, “I love God. I go to church every… Once a week I go, Sunday morning. I make my prayer. So what more? I have my family. I have my job.”

Vasughosa: But I was reading in this National Geographic Magazine, there is one sect of people in New York City, very orthodox following. They don’t even go to cinema. When they have free time they are studying the sastras, their sastras. They are very strict. They don’t even shave their faces because it says, “Do not round the corner of your face.” So they have these big beards like this, and their whole life is dedicated like this to reading and… They also sing and dance.

Prabhupada: That is something good.

Brahmananda: When I was a teacher in New York I taught in one of their schools. I taught the little children… [break]

Prabhupada: After that, he is fit down(?). Then, if life member comes, he can simply stay in the guest room without any charges for three days. [break]

Dhrstaketu: …that one is making progress by how he feels, or should he just simply execute the order of the spiritual master and not worry about how he feels? How should… In other words…

Prabhupada: If he is making progress, he must feel. If he is not making progress, then he will not feel.

Dhrstaketu: And that feeling is a willingness to serve Krsna or…

Prabhupada: No, that is always. Whether he is actually serving Krsna… That is devotion. So if he is actually serving Krsna, then anartha-nivrttih syat bhajana-kriya. Bhajana-kriya means anartha-nivrttih syat. This is the result. If his anartha is not decreasing, or becoming zero, then he is not making bhajana. He is doing something else.

Dhrstaketu: And if he’s not feeling increased ecstasy, then he should try to change his position or try to perform…

Prabhupada: No. There is no change of position. Position is the same.

Dhrstaketu: Because once this question was asked that… In class a devotee asked that “I’m losing my taste for serving the Deity, and I don’t know what to do,” and so they asked this question. So…

Prabhupada: He can chant. There is no question of “I am losing interest.” If he is actually following the rules and regulations, there is no question of losing interest.

Hari-sauri: There is never any decrease.

Dhrstaketu: You mean if one simply follows everything that is outlined in the temple schedule and…

Prabhupada: Yes. That should be strictly followed.

Dhrstaketu: Then his feeling will gradually develop. He’ll gradually develop love then.

Prabhupada: Yes. Anartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha. If his anartha is decreased, then he becomes firmly fixed up. There is no question of decreasing. (end)