Prabhupada: This is called hog life, how to maintain this body. Kastan kaman. Kaman means necessities of life. Very, with great difficulty… [break] …kaman. Life can be easily maintained by agriculture and cow protection. No. They will start big, big mills, factories, motor tires, cars, instruments. Kastan kaman. In the Bhagavad-gita it is called ugra-karma, fierce… (aside) Hare Krsna. Fierceful activities.

Vraja-vasi: Haribol!

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Kastan kaman. Unnecessarily creating problems. [break] …one after another, one after another. Formerly paper was used only for Vedic knowledge. Now the paper used for so many useless newspaper, volumes and volumes and jasusi(?), unnecessarily creating agitation of the mind. And if you explain these things they will say, “This is all primitive ideas.” Modern ideas means one must work very hard day and night to get a little piece of capati. Hm? What is the answer.

Gopala Krsna: If we don’t work hard they say, “You are a burden on society.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Gopala Krsna: If a person doesn’t work hard day and night they say, “You are just living on society.”

Prabhupada: That I am explaining. The day and night is that pig is working. That I am explaining. Then what is the difference between the pig and me if I am also working hard like that pig? Huh?

Gopala Krsna: There’s no difference.

Prabhupada: Then why you say you are advanced civilization? That is forbidden. Kastan kaman na arhati. It is not desirable; it is not good. You are given this body different from this pig because you will live peacefully and happily. Why should you accept kastan kaman, so hardship? Actually they do not want to work hard. Otherwise why the proprietor, the capitalist, they leave the factory and go to a solitary place? Why does he go?

Gopala Krsna: They don’t find any happiness even in the hard work.

Prabhupada: The other worker, he is seeing that “This rascal has engaged us in hard work and he is enjoying. So drive him out. Kill him.” This is communism. Everyone wants that, comfort, peacefully living. Therefore this civilization, to work hard, is condemned. If hard work is desirable why the capitalists avoiding? Hm? What is answer?

Upendra: They say they worked hard to get there.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Upendra: They worked hard to get there.

Prabhupada: “To get there” means?

Upendra: To get to their position they worked hard.

Prabhupada: What is their position?

Upendra: Of relaxation.

Prabhupada: Relaxing. I am relaxing. Why you are inducing me? I am relaxing. Then why you are inducing me to work hard? I am already relaxing. Chant Hare Krsna and take little prasada. That’s all. Why you are inducing me to work hard?

Brahmananda: They say you have to earn your relaxation.

Prabhupada: But earn or not earn, I am enjoying relaxation.

Brahmananda: You’re not entitled unless you work very hard.

Prabhupada: Oh. That is nonsense.

Upendra: In America they say you have to pay for freedom.

Prabhupada: No, freedom, if I have got already, why shall I pay? I have already paid. Why you’re inducing? I am already enjoying. Why you are inducing me to work hard? I have paid for it. By my karma in my previous life I have already paid for that; therefore I am enjoying.

Gopala Krsna: They don’t believe in the law of karma.

Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals. Rascal. This is a rascal civilization. Rascal civilization: one side, they say contraceptive; another side, they will encourage woman to marry three times a week. This is their civilization. If you want stop population why you are inducing “Indulge in sex life”? Stop sex life — brahmacari. Everything is contradictory. And it is all sense gratification, based on sense gratification.

Gopala Krsna: If a person is not satisfying his senses they think he is crazy.

Prabhupada: But where is your sense satisfied? You are crazy. You are repeatedly being kicked by nature, that your senses will never be satisfied. Still, you are trying for that. Even the old man of eighty years old, he is going to the nightclub. Where is sense satis… When his senses will be satisfied? (aside) Jaya. Relaxation. If somebody is relaxing, chanting, they will induce, “Oh, you are escaping.”

Brahmananda: “Misery loves company.”

Prabhupada: What is that?

Brahmananda: That’s a saying, that if someone is feeling misery, he wants other people to also enjoy the misery.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: No one wants to suffer alone.

Prabhupada: Cutting the tail of the jackal. (Bengali) “My tail is cut, so your tail must be cut.” This is a fashion. (pause) That is practical. The world is working so hard but where is the peace and happiness?

Brahmananda: It’s coming.

Prabhupada: (laughs) When it will come? That is unknown.

Brahmananda: Maybe at the end of this century.

Prabhupada: And at the end of your life. Just like insurance policy. You’ll be happy after death. “You go on paying now, work hard, go on paying the premium and you’ll be happy after death.” This is insurance policy. And I am going to be a dog after death, and how he’ll be happy? Just see.

Indian man (1): It is evident that miseries are growing darker and darker.

Prabhupada: That must be because you are under nature’s law. How you can avoid? As you are working, you will get the result. Karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. There is superior power to supervise how you are working.

Indian man (2): Karmana baddhyate jantur vidyaya…

Prabhupada: Yes. Karmana baddhyate. They do not know. Poor fund of knowledge. Rascals. Mudha. Krsna comes to inform these rascals, “You are all duskrtina, mudha.” That is Krsna’s declaration. Na mam duskrtino mu… “Therefore surrender unto Me.” This is the whole purpose.

Indian Man (2):

bahuni me vyatitani

janmani tava carjuna

tany aham veda sarvani

na tvam vettha parantapa

Prabhupada: That is the difference between Krsna and Arjuna. Although Arjuna is… Birth after birth, he is friend of Krsna, nitya-siddha. Still, he forgets, what to speak of others. Bahuni me janmani tava carjuna. That means, “We are friends always. So you also appear; I also appear. But the difference is you forget; I don’t forget. That is difference between you and Me. You also don’t forget. That is for limited time. But the consciousness is the same. Only difference is that My consciousness is unlimited; your consciousness is limited. That is difference.” This understanding is aham brahmasmi. My consciousness and Krsna’s consciousness, that is fact. But Krsna’s consciousness is everywhere; my consciousness is within myself. That’s all. The Mayavadi interprets, yena sarvam idam tatah: “One who is expanded everywhere, pervaded.” But I am not pervading everywhere.

Dhrstaketu: They say when you become liberated then you become…, then you pervade everywhere. It’s just that… They say that just now, in this position…

Prabhupada: So when you will be liberated? What is the standard of liberation?

Dhrstaketu: By performing austerities, by studying the…

Prabhupada: That’s all right. What is the standard?

Dhrstaketu: When I merge, when I lose my identity, when I don’t…

Prabhupada: That means you forget. You forget everything. Then how you will be liberated? Whatever little consciousness was there, that is finished. Then how you become liberated? Whatever you had, that is also finished. Eh? Then how you become liberated?

Harikesa: But what we are forgetting is just illusion anyway.

Prabhupada: That is liberation. Then I kill you, you forget everything — liberation. (laughter) What is the meaning of liberation? They do not know even the meaning of liberation.

Harikesa: To get rid of all these miseries.

Prabhupada: That you can do. I can kill you; you get rid of all miseries. Finished. You are finished; your miseries are finished. That’s all.

Brahmananda: It doesn’t matter whether you live or you die because it is all one.

Prabhupada: Well, let me kill you. That’s all right. It will be great beneficial to you.

Indian man (1): To my opinion, we are more liberated in… (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Your opinion, my opinion. We have to consider the fact. (Vraja-vasi passes by, singing) This is jivan ko sabadiya tomara. This is surrender, that he is singing, jivan ko sabadiya: “When I surrender unto Your lotus feet.” That is surrender. This is liberation. Just like the child fully surrendered to the parent, he is liberated. He has no anxiety. He is confident “My parents are there. Whatever he’ll do, that’s all right for me.” That is liberation.

Indian man (1): We can become free from all anxieties.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is liberation. If you are filled up with anxieties where is your liberation? That is not liberation.

Dhrstaketu: They will also say that this condition of being one with the Supreme is also…

Prabhupada: How you become one? If Krsna or the consciousness is there but you lose your consciousness, why you become one?

Harikesa: Well, it’s not exactly that we lose consciousness but we merge into the supreme consciousness.

Prabhupada: Supreme consciousness?

Harikesa: Then we become God.

Prabhupada: No. You cannot. Then why you are different now?

Harikesa: It’s my lila. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Then if it is lila, then why you are undergoing austerity? That is also lila. If it is lila, then why you are trying to get out of it by practicing austerity?

Harikesa: Maharaja Rsabhadeva performed austerity.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Harikesa: Rsabhadeva, he performed austerity.

Prabhupada: No, what…? I do not follow what you say.

Brahmananda: He’s saying that Rsabhadeva performed austerity, so therefore I am performing austerity.

Prabhupada: You are performing but what is Rsabhadeva’s position?

Brahmananda: He never claimed to merge with the supreme consciousness.

Dhananjaya: But the whole thing is that the supreme consciousness is unembodied and we are embodied right now. So when we attain supreme consciousness we also become unembodied.

Prabhupada: How you become embodied if you are supreme? Who made you embodied if you are supreme? Then who made you embodied, he is supreme. You are not supreme. You did not like to be embodied; therefore you are trying to be bodyless. But who made you embodied? Then that he or she is supreme. You are not supreme.

Dhrstaketu: I put myself in this condition so that I can enjoy getting out of it.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dhrstaketu: I put myself in this condition of illusion so that I can enjoy being liberated.

Prabhupada: And so you put yourself to be kicked by me and enjoy. Just test what is the enjoyment of being kicked.

Dhananjaya: But without pain how can you experience pleasure?

Prabhupada: You get this experience, how it is pleasure? I kick and you enjoy?

Dhrstaketu: The idea is that after experiencing the suffering of this material world then liberation will be very…

Prabhupada: Why there is suffering, material? You are supreme; why it is suffering for you?

Dhrstaketu: Well, so that when I…

Prabhupada: So, there is no “so that.” Why you are suffering?

Brahmananda: It’s suffering only for those…

Prabhupada: If it is your lila, then you are suffering. What is this nonsense of “my lila.” Suffering?

Brahmananda: The suffering is only for those who haven’t…, who don’t understand that they are supreme.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Brahmananda: Those who don’t understand, they are the ones who suffer, but I don’t suffer.

Prabhupada: So it is better to remain in that ignorance. Just like the hogs and dogs, they do not understand that this is suffering. But we can understand that this is suffering.

Brahmananda: Yes. To be a dog, that’s all right because the dog doesn’t suffer. He is enjoying.

Prabhupada: No, no, why you are doing austerity? Remain as dog and cat. Therefore you are mudha. You do not know what is suffering, what is enjoyment. Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. Therefore one who is intelligent, jnani, bahunam jan… After suffering in this way and talking all nonsense, when he comes to the real knowledge, then he surrenders. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is knowledge.

Indian man (1): Kamadinam katina katidha palita durnidesah.

Prabhupada: Ah. When he comes to this awareness, that “I have simply suffered and I wanted to maintain myself by jugglery of words,” then he comes to the real knowledge.

Dhrstaketu: So the Mayavadis’ philosophy is actually the supreme illusion.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has forbidden. Mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva nasa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. One is finished if he follows the Mayavada philosophy. He is doomed. He will never be able to accept the real philosophy. He will be absorbed in that false philosophy. This is Mayavadi’s position. Mayavadi haya krsne aparadhi. They are aparadhi, offender. Therefore they shall remain perpetually in ignorance and think himself, “I am God.” This is Mayavadi’s position. Vivekananda preached openly that “Why you are thinking that you are sinful? You are God.” He preached like that.

Brahmananda: The Christians, they have a concept of sin. So when Vivekananda went to America he was telling them, “No, you forget this concept. Whatever you do, it’s all right because you are God.” They were surprised.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gopala Krsna: That’s why they liked him.

Prabhupada: No, no. They did not like. The Christian priests did not like him. They condemned him, “Oh, you are come from India, and you are speaking nonsense, this?” In those hundred years the Christian priests were conscious: “But how is this? From India he has come and he’s talking like nonsense?” They questioned in Chicago speech.

Dhrstaketu: He’s just fanning the fires of atheism.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Harikesa: This Mayavadi philosophy, is this…?

Prabhupada: They are atheist. They are first-class atheist, more than the Buddhist. Veda na maniya bauddha haila nastika. The Buddhists, they did not accept Vedic authorities; therefore they are considered as nastika. But vedasraya nastikya vada. These rascals, they accept Vedas and preaches atheism. So they are more dangerous than the Buddhists. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s version. (aside) Hare Krsna. Bauddha ke adhika: “They are more dangerous than the Buddhists.” The Buddhists, although they are supposed to be atheists, they worship the Deity Lord Buddha. But they say it is maya. And more advanced than these atheists.

Brahmananda: The Mayavadis.

Prabhupada: More… Not advanced. More degraded. These atheists, they have been taught to worship the form of Lord Buddha, and Buddha is incarnation of Krsna, so one day they will be delivered. But these rascals will never be delivered.

Prthu-putra: I read in one of your books so many names about different groups of these Mayavadi philosophers. Are they still existing today and active?

Prabhupada: Yes. Anyone who thinks godlessness, he is Mayavadi, that’s all. Anyone. All these impersonalists, they are all Mayavadis. And mostly they are now impersonalists.

Dhrstaketu: So although we can’t see it with our material eyes, their position is very precarious.

Prabhupada: We have no eyes to see. We see through Krsna. As Krsna sees, we see. This is Krsna conscious. We are not perfect. Our position is that we are not perfect. But we are perfect so long we follow Krsna, that’s all. Just like I am blind man. I am not perfect. But if you have got eyes, if you take me I follow you. Then I am perfect. Krsna assures that “You surrender to Me and I will make you free from all dangers,” and we accept Krsna. That’s all. Our method is very easy. The child is walking, unable to walk, falling down. The parents say, father says, “My dear child, just catch my hand.” Then he’s safe. These Mayavadis, they go against the verdict of God. God says that “The living entities are My part and parcel,” and they say, “I am God.” So that is their foolishness. Part and parcel… Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. Otherwise why God says, “Surrender unto Me,” if you are equal with Him? Why God is asking, “Surrender unto Me”? You are not equal. You are rascal. You are claiming that “I am equal.” Otherwise there is no question of surrender. “You surrender unto Me.” And this knowledge of surrender comes, Krsna says, bahunam janmanam: “This rascal is always thinking ‘I am God, God, God.’ This rascaldom is finished after many, many births, this ignorance.” Then he surrenders. How the living entity is equal with God?

Brahmananda: Return?

Dhrstaketu: Of course, they may say that “Krsna is just an ordinary man like me and therefore He is asking…”

Prabhupada: Therefore you are rascal. Krsna is ordinary man, and He is lifting the hill.

Brahmananda: Well, that’s just a story in a book.

Prabhupada: He may be story for you. You may not believe that you have got a father but we are not mad. You can say, “To have a father is a story,” but mother says, “No, you have your father.” She is authority. You can say, “Oh, it is story.”

Gopala Krsna: They want historical evidence for everything.

Brahmananda: Yes, why doesn’t Krsna come and do it now?

Prabhupada: He is not your father’s servant, that he will come by your order. He’s the supreme master. Krsna is doing the same thing still, but you have no eyes to see. Krsna is doing. How this Krsna consciousness movement is spreading all over the world?

Brahmananda: Why doesn’t God force me to surrender?

Prabhupada: No. That Krsna is not a nonsense like you. Because Krsna has given you little freedom He does not want to touch it. That is Krsna. What He gives, He never takes it back. It is not a nonsensical award that “I give you sometimes; then I take it away.” Krsna does not do such. He has given you little freedom, so you can use it. Yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63], Krsna says in the Bhagavad…, “Whatever you like, you do.” That freedom is taken by nature. You are human being. If you do not engage yourself in Krsna consciousness, then nature will withdraw this privilege and you’ll become a dog. Krsna does not take, but His agent, maya, will take it away. Just like the police is the agent of the king or the government. The government does not care what you are doing. But if you do something criminal the police will punish you.

Brahmananda: But we’re going to change the laws of nature.

Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. (laughter) That is also replied, daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya dura… [Bg. 7.14]. “You cannot do that, my dear sir. You rascal, you are thinking like that. That is not possible.”

Gopala Krsna: But they say they’ve already made so much progress.

Prabhupada: You go on making progress but you will never come to the ultimate goal. You can go on foolishly. That’s all right. Just like they made progress, United Nations. What progress they have made?

Harikesa: They made a nice building.

Prabhupada: That’s right. (laughs) There are so many buildings.

Indian man (1): But they’ve been going to be assassinated.

Prabhupada: When I go that building, United Nations, I see how they are wasting money. Yes, I see.

Gopala Krsna: They have a very big budget, United Nations, billions of…

Prabhupada: Big, big. So many publications, so many big…

Indian man (1): They make everybody un-united.

Prabhupada: Huh? Yes. Disunited.

Prthu-putra: You have written in one of your books that they are just becoming more flags instead of less.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. They are increasing flags. Instead of one flag, they increasing flags. And they are trying for the last how many years? Thirty years?

Brahmananda: Yes.

Gopala Krsna: To stop wars. But they haven’t stopped a single war.

Dhrstaketu: But if Krsna is the Supreme and I should surrender unto Him, then why is it so hard to find out this knowledge? Why is it that only in the human form of life… Why is it so difficult to come to this knowledge if…

Prabhupada: Because you are rascal. For rascal everything is difficult. Easy thing is made difficult by rascals. That is the proof that you are rascal. By nature one is supposed to surrender to the parents. This is easy. Why do you do not do this? This is natural. Just like you have surrendered to me. Why? Because you think I am superior, you have to take knowledge from me. So if you have to accept some superior for your guidance, how you can deny surrendering? You see, brahmacari, he is being taught dandavat sirasi, by touching the head. Yesterday we were talking of that brahmacari? That is the instruction. Who is this boy?

Harikesa: He’s Kundali. He just came from New York.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Gopala Krsna: He just came from New York. He’s from the West… He’s a Commonwealth citizen. He’s from the West Indies. He says he’ll stay in India for the rest of his life.

Prabhupada: Oh, that’s nice. So you are going to the magistrate? You have calculated?

Saurabha: Ten thousand bags.

Prabhupada: Ten thousand bags. No, I wanted to construct this building with bricks.

Saurabha: Yes, but we have to make some slabs and some…

Prabhupada: Slabs? So still you will require ten thousand?

Saurabha: No. If we do with mud, then it will be much less.

Prabhupada: Not mud. The mortar means sand and cement.

Gunarnava: No plaster?

Prabhupada: No, no, plastering also.

Saurabha: No plastering.

Prabhupada: No, plastering also.

Saurabha: But it comes to about eight thousand bags if I do the whole land like that around. That is the full thing, two stories. It comes to about eight thousand. And then there’s always some extra for finalizing the floors…

Prabhupada: No, no. I don’t want to use this iron.

Saurabha: No, we don’t require iron.

Prabhupada: Simply brick. So in that way you still require ten thousand?

Saurabha: We require about eight thousand but it’s best to apply for ten thousand. If we only need five thousand, we take that. They will give us that allotment.

Prabhupada: Do it. [break]

Dhrstaketu: When Krsna would play His flute then the airplanes would be there.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dhrstaketu: When Krsna would play His flute then the airplanes would come and…

Prabhupada: Where is Krsna playing flute?

Dhrstaketu: In Vrndavana?

Prabhupada: Oh. Then why the airplanes do not come Delhi? (laughter) (pause) He is godless and we have to fight against them. Just see our position. We have to fight with the whole world.

Indian man (1): Number of forces will increase day by day.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Indian man (1): Number of forces are increasing day by day, they will fight adequately.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gopala Krsna: But you have done it singlehanded, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Single-handed, double-handed, doesn’t matter — if Krsna is there in the background. Arjuna fought singlehanded. Where is Pranava? (Hindi)

Indian man (1): (Hindi) Everyone was very much satisfied.

Prabhupada: That is wanted.

Indian man (1): Our Prabhupada is kind enough to make so many swans like us to remove away all the evils of the world.

Prabhupada: (aside) Jaya. Hare Krsna. (end)