Prabhupada: At present Christian religion is made easy. Christian religion made easy. What is that? Now, first of all Christ has taken out contract that “You go on committing all sinful life. I am guaranteeing you will be saved.” Is it not?

Hamsaduta: Yes.

Prabhupada: Or…? What is that?

Satsvarupa: Yes.

Prabhupada: So poor Christ has taken all concern. He will be crucified, and they will enjoy life. This is very easy religion. “I have nothing to do, and besides that, if Christ says something to do, that also we can neglect because he has taken guarantee. So although Christ says, ‘Thou shalt not kill,’ I can neglect that.” And then, if still he is captured, he will say, “Bible is very old.”

Hamsaduta: How can we accept it?

Prabhupada: (laughing) How they have made easy life, that see. They are… There is a story that a boy went for examination. So when he came back, his father asked, “My dear boy, how you have written your question paper?” “Yes, very nice.” “How?” “No, those questions which were very difficult, I could not answer. And the easier questions, what is to write? I know everything. (laughter) Easier questions, there is no need of writing. I know everything.” Both ways he has not written anything. So these rascals, both ways they will not follow anything. And still, they will credit… Not only Christians, everywhere these people want to banish God. Simply we are canvassing “God, God, God.” Otherwise nobody cares. Say about 1945, so in front of my house there was an old man. So as neighbor, we had very good talks always. So as soon as I say, “Bhagavan,” he will be angry. “God.” So one day he said, “Why you always say Bhagavan, God?” Just see, an old man and still he is such a rascal. He did not like. That is called demonism. Even the father of Prahlada Maharaja, that five years old boy, he was doing nothing harm, simply chanting Hare Krsna — he became angry: “No, no.” So big enemy that he wanted to kill him. This is demoniac. Some bad smell?

Hamsaduta: I don’t know. [break]

Prabhupada: There was a movement, Moral Rearmament Movement, started from America.

Hamsaduta: What was the name of it?

Prabhupada: MRA, MRA, Moral Rearmament Movement. Do you know, anyone of you?

Hamsaduta: No. Do you, Satsvarupa? No.

Prabhupada: So it was going on for some years, then collapsed. The movement was started by some priest or gentleman, and it was supported by President Eisenhower. It was patronized by him. So their principle was that, Christian principle, that “You do whatever you… Simply confess. Simply confess.” So that man came to India also with his party, just like I travel. [break] …substance, no movement will stay. It may go on for some time, bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. Now, what about our movement? It will stay or it will also go like that?

Satsvarupa: It will stay. We already have another generation coming up in Gurukula. The big danger, you say, is faction.

Prabhupada: We shall go straight or right?

Hamsaduta: Right. [break] He has taken safety place, and from safety place he is killing other poor animals. That is not shooting. The ksatriyas, they will shoot tiger face to face. Previously Jaipur Maharaja, he used to go to the forest, and so he would simply fight with the tiger with a sword.

Hamsaduta: That doesn’t happen anymore today.

Prabhupada: See the tiger has got its nails and teeth and jaw. So there was no firearm. He will challenge the tiger with a…, and he will take a sword and kill him. And then the tiger would be brought in procession, giving all honor, military honor.

Hamsaduta: To the tiger.

Prabhupada: That was the ksatriya’s practice, how to combat his enemies. Fighting should be on the equal level, not that “I take all shelter, and you are open to be killed by enemy.” [break] …understood the process of transmigration.

Hamsaduta: Yes. [break]

Madhavananda: Dehino ‘smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara [Bg. 2.13]. Could it be said, then, that we are transmigrating even while in this life?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Madhavananda: From boyhood to youth.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is transmigration? Transmigration means the first body you lose; you enter a second body, a third body, fourth. So your childhood body is not existing. Therefore you are in different body.

Madhavananda: So that way anyone can understand.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the way of understanding. And Krsna says, the authority, that “This is the way.” It is not that I have manufactured some philosophy. No. The most powerful authority, He says. So where is the position to deny it? Who can deny it, Krsna’s statement? If somebody denies, then he is a rascal. That’s all. Therefore we say that we have no difficulty to find out a rascal. As soon as one denies this, Krsna’s statement, he is a rascal. That’s it. Anyone who does not accept the transmigration of the soul, he is a rascal, that’s all, immediately. So easily understood, and still they will not understand. What is the possible objection?

Satsvarupa: Well, that example can be understood, but for the materialist, he doesn’t see how it applies to afterlife, one takes another body.

Prabhupada: Why, why he does not?

Satsvarupa: Because he can’t perceive. He can perceive that he has changed from child to old man, but he can’t perceive what is going to happen after death. So who knows?

Prabhupada: But he cannot perceive that we, at night we change this body and go to another body when we dream? He cannot perceive? Your body, this body, is laid down on the bed, and you go away, and you are thinking that you are in Europe and America or in the sky or so many things. So what is that?

Satsvarupa: Yes, while its happening he can’t perceive it.

Prabhupada: But that is happening. He is seeing. He is a man. He is seeing. Why he cannot perceive? What is the difficulty? What is the answer, anyone?

Madhavananda: He is in illusion.

Prabhupada: Illusion. You are seeing an illusion? Some tiger is coming. You are crying, “Save me, save me.” It is illusion. This body is also illusion. But you are affected. That means you are experiencing. How you can say that you are not perceiving? And when in dream you see your beloved or woman and man, there is no, nothing such thing, but still, there is discharge. Why? Why you are not perceiving? How you can say that you are not perceiving. It is perceiving. What is the answer? You are perceiving every night…

Satsvarupa: Yes, in dreams.

Prabhupada: …that you leave this body, you accept another body and do something else which you see. If that is illusion, then this is also illusion. Because in daytime you forget that night activities, and at night you forget the day activities. So this is also illusion. So therefore you are in illusion. That’s a fact, day and night, day and night. That is called maya. This is also maya. But they have accepted this as fact. The gross illusion they have taken as fact. This is also illusion. You are thinking, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “German.” What is that? By one kick of nature you are out, the cat and dog. This is also illusion. What is not illusion?

Hamsaduta: So there are also living beings, they accept the subtle material as illusion just as we are accepting this gross.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is going on. Therefore the problem is where is my real life? That is Krsna consciousness. When one understands, the rascal, that “This is also illusion. This is also illusion. Then where is my actual life?” that is Krsna consciousness.

Hamsaduta: I was hearing some statement about, from mediumship, of people who had died and they are living on a subtle platform, and they don’t actually know that they have died. They are so absorbed that they mentally…

Prabhupada: That is all… They may think like that, but this is practical thing. Try to understand that in daytime you are illusioned by this gross body, and at night you are illusioned by the subtle body. So both of them are illusion. Therefore if you are intelligent, your inquiry should be “What is my real life?” That is intelligence, “What I am?” That is… Sanatana Gosvami placed before… “What I am?” Ke ami. That “I am simply hovering in illusion, gross and subtle. Then what is my real position? What I am?” That is real philosophy. Athato brahma jijnasa. This is called Brahman. When I am Brahman”, so that is the beginning: “What I am? What is my position?” That illusion is going on. So the material life means he is in illusion for millions and millions of years. Ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagya… So out of many such millions and millions living entities, one becomes conscious, that “What is my real life?” That is awakening. Guru-krsna-prasade paya [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Then he begins his devotional life: “My real life is this.”

Madhavananda: Then as soon as one begins to understand who he is, the transmigration stops.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is that understanding? His understanding is that “I am eternal servant of Krsna. So let me surrender to Krsna as He wants and serve Him.” This is life. As soon as he is on this platform, then he is out of illusion. And if he is perfect, then just after giving up this body he goes to Krsna. This is the process. If he does not fall from this transcendental service of Krsna, then immediately after death he is transferred. Just like we are transferred from this gross body to subtle body, similarly, after death a devotee is transferred immediately to the Krsna, where Krsna is there, either within this material world or… They are first of all given chance to go to Krsna. In any brahmanda there is Krsna. Nitya-lila is going on. So he is born there. Then actually plays with Krsna, dance with Krsna, talks with Krsna. Apprenticeship. This is also apprenticeship here. So is there any difficulty of perception?

Satsvarupa: No.

Prabhupada: Why you said that “I have no perception?” There is perception, every day, every night. How you can say there is no perception? The perception is so strong, sometimes one dreaming some horrible position, he cannot more sleep. The sleep breaks. So why there is no perception? He is so much troubled that breaks. He immediately comes to the safe side of this gross body.

Devotee (1): Yes, takes shelter.

Prabhupada: So how do you say there is no perception? So this transmigration of soul takes place that… Just like in daytime we are in this body, nighttime we leave this body and work with the subtle body, so transmigration soul takes place — with that subtle body he enters the womb of suitable mother, and this body is left. And there he grows again this gross body and then comes out. Is it difficult to understand? That is not illusion. That’s fact. And death means that you left this gross body and the period you do not come out in another gross body, that period is called death. That period is called death.

Satsvarupa: So you are dead for about seven months.

Prabhupada: Yes, that may be, according to the body you are getting. There are 8,400,000 species of body. So according to your work you will be allowed to enter into the womb of mother. How can you check it? Where is your scientist? That is nature’s law, automatically. Just like if you are infected, you get this disease. That’s all. There is no need of mother nature will take personal… No, the rules are so fine that you will get automatically. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate sva-bhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. The Krsna’s energies are so powerful and subtle that it takes everything takes automatically. One set up, then after that, after that, after that, after that — everything is there. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani [Bg. 3.27]. Everything is described in the Bhagavad-gita. You have no control. You are simply under the grip of material nature. Everything, whatever you are doing, immediately it is being recorded automatically. Just like automatic printing press. You simply push the paper, and magazine comes. If you can manufacture some machine, you rascal, then how subtle machine can work on under the supervision of the Supreme?

Madhavananda: Srila Prabhupada, once you said that if we could remember our past life, we would go crazy because it is so frustrating to continue transmigrating.

Prabhupada: Even in this life we experience so much frustration. Even if we remember now, we become horrible: “Oh, I was in this state of life, I was in this state of life.” Immediately shudder. “Oh, Krsna has saved me.” You should be obliged that Krsna has given you shelter. You should… “Do not go again to that other platform.” That is intelligence. The other day who was telling me that in Northern Pole, because there is no day, so many people commit suicide. Is it not?

Madhavananda: Sweden has the highest suicide rate.

Prabhupada: Because that is horrible condition for any intelligent man. There is no day. Why they commit suicide in Sweden?

Madhavananda: Because it is horrible condition.

Prabhupada: On account of that?

Madhavananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: Oh, just see.

Madhavananda: So I hear.

Prabhupada: So just see how Krsna’s management, nature’s management, there is day and night, day and night, day and night. Otherwise it is horrible. If it is all simply day, it is horrible also. And if it is simply night, that is also horrible. So He is so kind He has given day and night, day and night. So do not be misled by this illusion as others are being. Stick to Krsna to save. That is the only… Is Stockholm also like that?

Madhavananda: Yes. Who is from Stockholm? This is what I heard.

Prabhupada: Stockholm also like that?

Hamsaduta: In the winter months there is only a few hours, a few hours’ sunlight. Then it goes down.

Prabhupada: Three hours.

Hamsaduta: Yeah, in the winter, it is very, very, long winter.

Devotee (2): The same thing in the summer. Some days the sun is shining all day and night.

Prabhupada: In Sweden?

Devotee (2): Yes. Midsummer night.

Prabhupada: There is no night, only day?

Madhavananda: Right.

Prabhupada: I have seen in Moscow. Practically, the night begins at half past eleven, and again morning, half past three or four. That I have seen in the month of June. Night begins at half past eleven. I have seen when the night… That is also not full night. It is not full night. So in this way, after few hours… So half past eleven to half past three, how many hours? Three hours.

Hamsaduta: Three hours, four hours.

Prabhupada: Three hours, I think. No?

Madhavananda: Four hours.

Prabhupada: Four hours. Again daytime. That I have seen.

Hamsaduta: And in the winter it is just the opposite, always dark and a few hours day.

Prabhupada: It is winter, at the same time dark. How happy life, just see. Advanced civilization. No light and winter. And still, they are happy. (laughs)

Madhavananda: Srila Prabhupada, once you said that to stop this transmigration, one has to become completely disgusted with this material world.

Prabhupada: Yes, unless…, how he can take to Krsna consciousness? If he takes as a fashion, that is another thing. Just like the man who cannot tolerate commits suicide. Therefore you told me. Yes. One who is completely disgusted with this material life, he becomes fixed up in Krsna consciousness.

Satsvarupa: What about Lord Caitanya who prayed that “I don’t mind coming back again and again”?

Prabhupada: That is devotee’s sincerity, that he does not go to Krsna for some material profit. Any condition, he is Krsna conscious. That is his humbleness. And a devotee, actual devotee, he doesn’t want. But it happens. Otherwise how Krsna says, janma karma me divyam yo janati [Bg. 4.9]. It will take automatically. But he is not, I mean to say, very serious, that “I must go to Krsna and be saved from these material miseries.” A devotee never says like that. He wants that “Never mind miseries. Let me chant Hare Krsna.” That is his position.

Satsvarupa: For us, is the perfection to be absorbed in preaching to others?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satsvarupa: Rather than thinking “I want to go and play with Krsna”?

Prabhupada: No. Your… Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That is Caitanya. Yes.

Satsvarupa: To everyone, tell them about Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satsvarupa: Not thinking, “Oh, when will I go to Krsnaloka?”

Prabhupada: No, it doesn’t matter. You give him good advice. Just like a canvasser. He canvasses for selling some books or some… If does not sell, he is not a culprit. He has done his job. That is recognized by Krsna. Devotee does not make any bargain with Krsna that “Krsna will give me this benefit; therefore I have become pure devotee.” That is not devotee. Prahlada Maha… He is a merchant, “You give me this price. I will deliver this clothing.” That is not devotion. Aslisya va pada-ratam pinastu mam marma-hatam karotu va: [Cc. Antya 20.47] “Any condition, I am your slave. Whatever You like, you can do with me.” That is the sign, not that “If it is favorable to my idea, then I accept You.” That is not devotion. Anyabhilasita-sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11], no desire. Only desire: “Please accept me as Your eternal servant again.” Bhaktivinoda Thakura sings, marobi rakhobi jo iccha tohara: “Now, if You like, You can kill me; if You like, You can keep me. Whatever You like, I am prepared.” Marobi rakhobi jo iccha tohara. That is surrender. [break] Similarly, if we live on the nature’s way, there is no problem. The extra brain and intelligence which we have from the lower animals, we are utilizing for the same purpose, the animal life. That lady was saying, “Now we are advanced, so…” (car comes by) It is our car?

Hamsaduta: No.

Prabhupada: There is a camp. [break] We can return now. (end)