Prabhupada: What do you understand by the word “maya”?

Yogesvara: That which is not.

Pusta-krsna: Things which we place value on that have no relation to Krsna.

Prabhupada: The maya is explained very nicely in the Bhagavata, yathabhaso yatha tamah. Just like sun is reflected in the water, and the light is reflected again on the wall. This is the exact explanation of maya. Reality, this material world, the man who manufactured all these things, nobody knows where he has gone, but these things are taken as reality. This will be also finished. It will remain as relics, as Rome, relics, but when it was…, the houses were prepared with great enthusiasm as reality. And now it is as relics. So the energy expended for manufacturing those house, that is also maya, and now they are being visited as relics. That is also maya. So all these things are mayara vaibhava, expansion of maya. So if somebody says that you don’t appreciate these things? No, we appreciate, very much appreciate intelligence. But if you, for this appreciation, if you forget, then it is maya. Forget Krsna.

Pusta-krsna: Krsna.

Prabhupada: Then it is maya. Otherwise, it is reality. If they would have installed Deity worship in these buildings, how much nice it would have been. People chanting, dancing, and taking prasadam, twenty-four hours. Then it is no more maya. It is reality. Such big, big, nice houses, they should have been places of worshiping Krsna. But they’re worshiping bones, keeping some dead bones, and…

Pusta-krsna: People must be educated that everything belongs to Krsna.

Prabhupada: That is a fact. Why they do not understand?

Paramahamsa: The government argues that they do not want to discriminate against any religious faith. So they remain secular.

Prabhupada: No, no. That is no governmen… Religious faith is different. That is nonsense. You, we are talking of science. We are, just like we were saying that everything belongs to Krsna. So where is the, any religious feeling? Everything belongs to Krsna, how you can say no? Can you say?

Paramahamsa: They can say, “We don’t know Krsna.”

Prabhupada: You don’t know Krsna, but it belongs to somebody. He may be named as Krsna or something else. That doesn’t matter. But it is, it does not belong to you. How you can deny it? You have come here… Suppose I have come here, in Paris. I stay here for one week, two. Does it mean Paris is mine? Similarly, you come from the womb of your mother and stay here, say, fifty years. That is mean yours? The same example. Does it mean that the world belongs to you? Why you are claiming, “This is France,” “This is Europe,” “This is America,” “This is mine,” “This is mine…”? Before your birth it was there, and when you go, it will remain there. So how you claim that it is yours? So you don’t… You must know as it remained, it was there before my birth, and it will remain after my departure. Then how it belongs to you? What is the answer?

Paramahamsa: It belongs to the man who created it.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Paramahamsa: It belongs to the man who created it and is conscious of its origin.

Prabhupada: Who created? Who created? You created this stones and sand?

Paramahamsa: Nature.

Prabhupada: Then what is nature?

Satsvarupa: The life force working behind…

Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?

Satsvarupa: They’d say the life force is working…

Prabhupada: Therefore nature is… Behind the nature, there is Krsna. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa… [Bg. 9.10].

Pusta-krsna: How is it possible, Srila Prabhupada? We’re so tiny, one ten-thousandth the tip of a hair, and yet we can become so puffed-up as to think that even I am God or I am the controller of the material nature like the scientists are thinking?

Prabhupada: Because they are in the bodily concept of life, they are thinking, “I’m not teeny, small particle. I am this big, fatty body.” He’s thinking like that. Just like a dog is thinking, “I am bulldog.” It is like that, the same concep…

Pusta-krsna: So that idea just in the mind?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is animalism. (pause) [break]

Paramahamsa: …performing these works and these creations independent of God.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Paramahamsa: The materialist sees himself acting independent of God.

Prabhupada: How he’s independent of God? Napoleon wanted to finish that arch, and he was kicked out. How he’s independent of God. Such a big person, strong person, he wanted to finish, but he was not allowed to finish. Then how he thinks that he’s independent. That is foolishness, that I can be kicked out at any moment, and still he’s thinking “I am independent.” What is the answer? Why he was kicked out? He was a very powerful man, and why he was kicked out? “No, you cannot finish. You go, get out immediately.” Then? Where is his independence. He was simply falsely puffed-up independent. And now, after being kicked out, if he has taken the body of a cat and dog, then what is the benefit? Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. The nature is so strong and the laws are so stringent. We are not independent. If you touch fire, fire is one of the elements, it will burn your finger. However powerful you may be, you cannot stop it. Then where is your independence?

Pusta-krsna: We studied a verse yesterday evening in the Bhagavad-gita in the Eighteenth Chapter. Krsna says, “Work always under My protection.”

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusta-krsna: Krsna says to always work under His protection, that “One may be engaged in all sorts of activities, but, in the end, by My grace, you will come back to Me.”

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta-krsna: So the activities of the materialistic man, then, no matter what he does, he will develop another material body for it. (indistinct) Is that right, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Hm? Yes.

Pusta-krsna: And a devotee is acting, but he’s not getting any mental impression? From his activities?

Prabhupada: His mind is being… His mental expression is Krsna. He’s always thinking of Krsna. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Hare Rama. We have got some propensity to create. Just like this beautiful place. We have got creative energy. Therefore it is advised that nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe. Make it for Krsna. You’ll find in India, they have also created big, big temples, four flight, but for Krsna. Then the energy spent for creating this park, in relationship with Krsna will be utilized as service to Krsna. And if it simply meant for sense gratification, then you are under the laws of nature, contaminated. Just like if a man is very powerful, he’s creating this park, but he is contaminated with some infection, he, will he not suffer?

Pusta-krsna: He must suffer.

Prabhupada: Does it mean that because he has created this park, therefore contamination will not act upon him? Is it a fact? It must act. So after creating all these things, if you contaminate some infectious modes of material nature, then you have to accept the body of cats and dogs. Then what is your benefit? Karanam guna-sango ‘sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. Karanam, the reason for high and low grade birth is due to contamination with the modes of material nature. Hare Krsna.

Paramahamsa: Yesterday, we said that, Prahlada Maharaja said that he didn’t fear Lord Nrsimhadeva, even though he was so ferocious, but he feared the material nature.

Prabhupada: That is contamination. If I be contaminated with the material nature, then I’ll have to accept a body given by material nature.

Paramahamsa: But it’s said that a devotee’s supposed to be fearless.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Paramahamsa: It is said that a devotee is supposed to be fearless.

Prabhupada: Fearless because devotee means one who has taken shelter of Krsna. He’s devotee. He’s fearless. And one who has not taken shelter of Krsna, how he can be fearless? Suppose there is epidemic disease, if you have got vaccination, then you can remain fearless. Otherwise, the epidemic will contaminate and then you’ll have to suffer. So Krsna is the vaccination to remain fearless.

Pusta-krsna: You have used the example, Srila Prabhupada, that just like a little child, when he’s near his father, he knows he has nothing to worry about. His father will protect him.

Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna… Today, it is cold, eh? Where is our Karandhara?

Bhagavan: Karandhara Prabhu. He’s here.

Prabhupada: You are feeling very cold?

Karandhara: Not too cold, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: I am feeling. Old man.

Pusta-krsna: Would you like this blanket also, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: No, that’s all right. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna…

Pusta-krsna: So as soon as the modes of nature are no longer working on the spirit soul, then he experiences that he’s no longer changing his body?

Prabhupada: Yes. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya dura… mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te [Bg. 7.14].

Pusta-krsna: By taking shelter of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. The thing is that if I am so much susceptible to the contamination of maya, the modes of material nature, then if I waste my time in material advancement of life, is it not risky?

Pusta-krsna: Very risky.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta-krsna: Just the other morning, you were lecturing that just because we are young, we should not waste a moment here and think that “Oh, I have so much time to live. Let me put off Krsna consciousness…”

Prabhupada: That is fall consciousness. Prahlada Maharaja said: “immediately…” Kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan [SB 7.6.1]. No waste after. Our policy is that. Therefore we have opened Dallas, that immediately, from the very beginning of life let them understand Krsna consciousness.

Yogesvara: Srila Prabhupada if the devotee is fearless, how is it that Prahlada was expressing his fearfulness of material nature?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Yogesvara: If the devotee is fearless, how is it Prahlada was expressing his fearfulness of the material nature?

Prabhupada: Yes. Even you are fearless, you should not be fool. Because, if you know that “There is danger, I must be very careful,” that is intelligence. That is not fearfulness. Besides that, a devotee like Prahlada, he’s fearless, but he’s fearful for others. That is stated. Just like the mother. She knows that she’ll not catch fire, she’ll not fall down in the water, but she is always anxious to see her child that the child may not fall into the water, may not catch fire. She’s working in her own way, but always fearful of the child. Similarly, a Vaisnava, he’s not fearless for himself, but because he’s sympathetic, because he knows that all these rascals, they are wrongly wasting their time, therefore he’s anxious, fearful. Para-duhkha-duhkhi. They are unhappy by seeing others unhappy. For themselves, there is no unhappiness. That is their grace. And Vaisnava is fearless, even if he’s sent to hell, he’s not unhappy. Because wherever he goes, he’ll chant Hare Krsna. So actually he has no fear, fearfulness. He is only unhappy… Just like we are talking. Others may think that we are criticizing, but we are actually talking. Suppose this, one who has manufactured this big park and he has, next life, he has become contaminated, the dog’s life, then what is the use? How you can guarantee that you are not going to be a dog? It is under the management of material nature, maram (?), very powerful. Just like even a big man like Napoleon, he’s also under the control of material nature. As soon as the time is… “Get out.” “No, I want to finish this arch.” “No, sir, you get out.” Then where is your powerfulness? That they do not know. For the temporary power, they become puffed up and go to hell. That’s all. But they have no conception of hell. These are primitive ideas.

Yogesvara: It’s sometimes very hard to feel a compassion for others when we ourselves are still feeling so much contaminated.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yogesvara: We, in the neophyte stage, we’re feeling ourselves so much attacked by maya that sometimes it’s very difficult…

Prabhupada: Therefore those who do not take risk, they do not remain within this material world. They go to the Himalaya, go to the forest. They are afraid of being contaminated. But more liberal devotees, they take the risk and “Never mind, I shall go to hell. Let me do something for Krsna. Let others may understand something of Krsna.” That is their, mean magnanimity, taking the risk of going to hell, still, giving the information, “Just try to understand Krsna.” So such persons are exalted. Because they are taking their own risk to serve Krsna. That at least one man may understand Krsna. And others, they are flying, flying away, fleeing away, “No, no. We are not going to take risk.”

Pusta-krsna: Krsna says that there’s no one more dear to Me than…

Prabhupada: Gosthyanandi and bhajananandi. Bhajananandi means they are interested for their own welfare, and gosthyanandi, he wants to see that more devotees are there. That is the difference.

Paramahamsa: Actually, Prahlada Maharaja said that he’s not feeling any anxiety for himself…

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes.

Paramahamsa: He’s feeling anxiety that they’re not taking to Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: They’re… And, on account of his being so, taking the risk, he is immediately very dear to Krsna. That is declared in the Bhagavad-gita, na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah [Bg. 18.69]. “Anyone who is trying to broadcast My message, My glory, he immediately, there is no more dearer than him anyone.” So one should take this risk.

Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, yesterday you said that Krsna appreciates the devotee when he accepts voluntary adversity.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Paramahamsa: Yesterday, you said that Krsna appreciates when a devotee accepts voluntary adversity.

Pusta-krsna: Like the kings who gave up everything to live an ascetic life.

Paramahamsa: But how do we know what, how do we know when we should accept this adversity? Sometimes people artificially…

Prabhupada: No, no. Adversity, not always to accept. But you have to follow the regulative principle enjoined in the sastras. That is, in one sense… Suppose you are accustomed to certain type of, standard of living, but for Krsna’s sake, you have to give it up. That kind of adversity. That is not actually adversity, but he thinks that “I have taken this voluntary…” What is this, electric? So not a single useful tree. These trees are no fruits, no flowers.

Yogesvara: Yes. Can we call these trees demonic?

Prabhupada: Not demonic. Sinful.

Paramahamsa: They have many seeds to reproduce themselves, but no fruits or flowers.

Prabhupada: Impious, not pious. What is the name of this park?

Yogesvara: The Tuilerie Park.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yogesvara: The Tuilerie Garden.

Prabhupada: Tuilerie.

Yogesvara: Tuilerie Garden.

Pusta-krsna: That is the name of a person?

Devotee: No, no.

French devotee: It was the park of a king before. There was a king.

Prabhupada: Oh, the king is a park only.

Pusta-krsna: So you were explaining that they’re naming everything in the material world after different people in regards to Lake Geneva. You said, “It’s Geneva’s lake, but actually, it is Krsna’s lake, or Krsna’s park.”

Prabhupada: Yes, but they have no sense. They think it is Geneva’s park.

Pusta-krsna: We could call it Purusottama Park, or something like that.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is nice. Therefore, we give name everyone: Krsna dasa, servant of Krsna. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna… (pause) [break]

Paramahamsa: …and we give them the argument, could you eat if we brought you the cow and let you kill her yourself, and they say, “No, I could not do that.” (Prabhupada chuckles) But yet, when the cow’s meat is killed and wrapped up in a nice wrapper, they eat, and they don’t have any bad feeling about it.

Prabhupada: This is called maya. He cannot face the actual situation, but, covered by some maya, he accepts. This is another example of maya. Directly killing the animal he cannot tolerate, but when it is covered by maya, the same danger, he accepts.

Pusta-krsna: It is like the people: they say that the air is very polluted. We cannot breathe it now. And they will smoke cigarettes also.

Prabhupada: (Chuckles) Yes.

Paramahamsa: Actually, our preaching work is when we show people how, by avoiding Krsna, they actually kill themselves.

Prabhupada: Hm? Yes. Suicidal. Atma-han. Narottama dasa Thakura said, janiya suniya bisa khainu. Knowingly, I am drinking poison. Knowingly. Janiya suniya bisa khainu.

hari hari! bifale janama gonainu

manusya-janama paiya, radha-krsna na bhajiya,

janiya suniya bisa khainu

Bisa khainu means drinking poison. (pause)

Paramahamsa: Although a devotee feels helpless in the hands of Krsna, still, in order to execute his duty, he must be very strong.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: How does he reconcile those two?

Prabhupada: He must work for Krsna. He is not doing anything for himself. He’s doing for Krsna. For Krsna’s sake, one can take any kind of risk. Just like the karmis, they take any kind of risk for earning some money similarly, bhakta also will take any kind of risk to satisfy Krsna. Guru-krsna. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah **. So it is not very clean. Why?

Paramahamsa: Many, many people come here every day and not too many people clean. It’s difficult to have people clean. They think it’s too low, as an occupation.

Devotee: They spend their money making bombs instead of sanitation. (Prabhupada laughs) (pause)

Prabhupada: Why?

Paramahamsa: Instead of taking bath every day, they use perfume on their body. Fifty years ago, very few people had a shower in the home, and they would go to a public bath once a week or twice a week for a bath. Most of the time they cleaned themselves off with alcohol.

Prabhupada: They still, in Germany, they have no bath in every house. They go to the public bath. Is it not? They, simply they have got only one toilet. That’s all. And for taking bath, they go the public house. They have to pay some… [break] Hmm?

Devotee: The creation of the materialism is only one-fourth.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: What happened to the other three-fourths?

Prabhupada: What is this picture?

Paramahamsa: It’s a Greek myth.

Prabhupada: Whom he’s killing?

Paramahamsa: It’s a man with the head of a…

French Devotee: …the head of a bull. The head of a bull.

Devotee: Head of donkey.

Prabhupada: No, it is goat, goat.

Paramahamsa: These are called centaurs.

Devotee: It’s a man with a bull’s head.

Yogesvara: Like Daksa.

Prabhupada: Daksa?

Yogesvara: Daksa has a head of a goat.

Prabhupada: Daksa. Daksa. Yes. Maharaja Daksa.

Pusta-krsna: In order to chant the holy name purely, Srila Prabhupada, is it necessary to feel separation?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusta-krsna: In order to chant the holy name purely, is it necessary to have feelings of separation?

Prabhupada: Yes. Provided he has got the taste for chanting. Otherwise he’ll sleep. That’s all. (pause) These are all buildings for museum?

Paramahamsa: Yes, and some small parts are used for administrative offices, the government and police. This used to be a king’s palace.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Paramahamsa: This used to be the king’s palace, of France.

French Devotee: (indistinct)

Paramahamsa: Yes, this was the palace before they built the big palace in Versailles. Versailles is like a demigod’s planet. It’s the most wonderful building in all of France. Everything in gold, and wonderful paintings. Very, very big, and wonderful gardens and rivers. The king of France was very intelligent. In order to keep the nobles from revolting against him, he invited them all to his palace to enjoy with him. And he gave them wonderful feasts and a lot of sex life, and wonderful music. And like this, they never revolted during his time. This was Louis the Fourteenth.

French Devotee: He was called the sun king.

Paramahamsa: They call him the saintly king.

French Devotee: Sun, sun.

Paramahamsa: Oh, the sun king.

Prabhupada: What is that sun king?

Paramahamsa: Why do they call him “Sun King”?

French Devotee: Because he was very opulent.

Paramahamsa: Today, the French people collect millions of dollars every year from the Americans to keep Versailles beautiful.

Prabhupada: American tourists pay.

Paramahamsa: Yes, many hundreds and thousands of American tourists come there every year just to see this opulence.

Yogesvara: The Americans appreciate opulence. That’s why we joined your movement.

Prabhupada: (Chuckles) Yes. Catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtino ‘rjuna. So because in your previous life, you had been pious, you have got your life in America, and now utilize it. Certainly, I, several times I have told that your previous life, you were pious. There is no doubt about it. And now utilize that opportunity. You have got opulence. You have got money. You have got intelligence. Utilize it for Krsna. Then it is successful. And Krsna has also come. This Krsna consciousness movement has come to your country. So utilize it properly.

Pusta-krsna: I think we must be extraordinarily fortunate that Lord Krsna, He appears once in a day of Brahma, and He appeared just five thousand years ago. And then Lord Caitanya just appeared five hundred years ago, and we have an opportunity to associate with Them.

Prabhupada: Yes. Always remember this grace of Lord and utilize it. (long pause) So these houses were constructed before Napoleon, or after Napoleon?

Yogesvara: Before.

French Devotee: Oui. Oui. These big house?

Prabhupada: Yes.

French Devotee: Before Napoleon. But this arch is called Carousel Arch, and that’s for Napoleon.

Prabhupada: After Napoleon?

French Devotee: On the glories of some victories in Germany, you know and… (end)