Prabhupada: Yes. [break] …ist countries they accept a leader.
Pusta Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: Do they not?
Pusta Krsna: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: So before they became communist, they had some leader or not?
Pusta Krsna: Yes, the Czar in Russia.
Pusta Krsna: The Czar was the leader in Russia.
Jayatirtha: And Chiang Kai-shek in China.
Prabhupada: So why they changed their leader?
Gopala Krsna: There was a revolution.
Madhudvisa: People were unsatisfied.
Madhudvisa: People were not satisfied with the government. There was a revolution.
Prabhupada: No, people were not satisfied… The principle, what is the principle? To have better leader. Is it not? So if they get still better leader, why they will not change?
Madhudvisa: They would say it’s not the leader but it’s the system.
Prabhupada: Whatever… The system is done by some leaders. Anything… Just like our, this system we have introduced. I am the leader. Similarly, a leader is changed for betterment of the situation. So if the communists and those who have brain, if they find a better leader for better situation, why they’ll not? And they want for revolution also. They are in favor of revolution. Their theory is that periodically there must be revolution. That is their theory. I talked with Professor Kotovsky. So why they will not accept another revolution for further advancement?
Madhudvisa: One of the main problems I can see is to divorce our movement from religious concept because…
Prabhupada: It is not the question of religious concept. This is nonsense. You have to… Just like when Krsna says, dehino ‘smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara [Bg. 2.13] — that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita — so does it mean a religion? Then why these nonsense take it as religion? It is a fact. How you can neglect the fact? Eh? Kaumaram yauvanam jara. A baby becoming a boy, boy becoming a young man, is it religion? Either Hindu or Muslim or Christian or Buddha, everyone is becoming like that. Where is religion? Why do they take it as religion?
Satsvarupa: It’s religion because it’s not empirical fact.
Satsvarupa: It’s not an empirical fact.
Prabhupada: What is that empirical fact?
Satsvarupa: That after you die, you take another body.
Prabhupada: Apart from that, why, how the baby is becoming a boy? This is a fact. How a baby is becoming a child, a child is becoming a boy, a boy is becoming young man, a young man is becoming middle aged? Does it mean… Is it a particular type of religious system? Why this nonsense? What kind of intelligent person they are? It is a fact. Now we come to the old age. So I have come to the point of old age body after so many stages. Then where is the next? The next is tatha dehantara: he’ll get another body. This is very common sense.
Madhudvisa: They won’t accept that.
Prabhupada: That means a rascal. Why should you not…? You answer, then what is next?
Madhudvisa: They will say he is finished.
Prabhupada: No, how it can be finished? How it can be finished? If you have come stage by stage by stage… It is finished to your eyes. Just like the sunshine is there. “In the evening there will be no more sun; it is finished.” What is this nonsense? Is it finished? A rascal may say it is finished.
Rupanuga: Out of sight, they say it is finished.
Prabhupada: Yes. So this thing you have to convince them. Why should you allow them to remain a rascal? Now the sun is rising. Does it mean all of a sudden a sun is created? So these are the examples. You have to preach like that. Simply believe your eyes? You believe also there was no sun; now it is sun. That means all of a sudden a sun became created. See the intelligent persons and convince them. Yad yad acarati sresthah [Bg. 3.21]. Pick up the best man. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He picked up the best men, Sanatana Gosvami, Rupa Gosvami. So His movement became successful. Sanatana Gosvami was not an ordinary man. Very educated, learned brahmana and minister, Caitanya Mahaprabhu picked up. Similarly Rupa Gosvami, similarly Jiva Gosvami. Picked up means by His preaching they became converted. So similarly pick up a person like Sanatana Gosvami, intelligent, in position, and try to convince him. Why he will not be convinced, if he’s a human being? This is not religion. That I am breathing, what is this breathing? Eh? What is the breathing?
Guru-krpa: Air going in and out.
Prabhupada: Yes. Now, when the breathing is stopped, why don’t you manufacture some machine that breathing will come again? Why you cannot do it? Everyone knows it is air. Put some machine within and let there be breathing. Tell me why you cannot do it?
Mahendra: They have some machines like that, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Then you are another rascal. Who is this rascal?
Mahendra: They have some machines.
Prabhupada: And don’t spoil time like that, “They have got a machine.” What is that machine?
Mahendra: Machines are not living.
Prabhupada: And don’t create unnecessary talks. What is that machine? They have a machine? What is that nonsense machine? Eh? Who knows that machine? Eh?
Guru-krpa: It’s called an air respirator.
Prabhupada: But can it bring life?
Prabhupada: Then what is the use of that machine? What is the use of that machine? Everyone knows that it is air. Now air is stopped. That is my reject(?). Bring that air again. There is ample air. Bring that machine. Simply… Similarly, if you analyze the whole body, it is confirmed, you will find these five elements, that ‘s all, earth, water, air, fire, sky. That’s all.
Tamala Krsna: That’s scientific. No one denies that.
Prabhupada: Yes. They why don’t you create a body? What is your science?
Pusta Krsna: You’ve just pointed out: the body may already be there, but they cannot replace the life. Even a body is already created, like a dead body, but they can’t bring life back into it.
Prabhupada: Then what is that life? That is the question. That life is soul. You have to accept. [break] …car stop. Some machine broken. As soon as the machine is placed, now the motor car is fit for running, but not for the machine, but for the driver. When the driver is not there, you cannot create or purchase a driver. That is not possible. You can repair the machine, but without driver the machine will not run. So why they should be blind about this fact? What is this knowledge, advancement of knowledge? The body is created. If it is accepted-body is created by these material elements — now create another body. Just like dollmakers make a body, you also make a body, very beautiful woman, and give it life. Why they cannot do it?
Pusta Krsna: But even accepting that the soul is the living force, they may say that “Well, we’re living in this material world and we have to deal with matter, so what is the importance of all this knowledge?”
Pusta Krsna: They may say that “We’re living in the material world in spite of this knowledge, so we have to deal with material circumstances.”
Prabhupada: But you do not like to die. Why do you die with your material knowledge? Nobody wants to die but why you die? Then where is your material knowledge. You do not like to be old man. Where is your material knowledge that you can stop old age? Then you have to accept that your material knowledge is not perfect. Why you are so much proud of this false knowledge? Unnecessarily.
Tamala Krsna: But we don’t see that you are able to stop death.
Tamala Krsna: We agree that it would be nice to stop death, but where is…
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, we know. You learn from us. We know. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. This is the process.
Bhavananda: But we haven’t seen that anyone in your movement…
Prabhupada: Again “seeing,” condemned seeing. Your seeing is like that, that “The sun has come all of a sudden.” That is your seeing. “And when the sun is not there, the sun dead.” That is your seeing. This is rascal seeing, animal seeing.
Madhudvisa: Then you want us to have faith.
Prabhupada: No faith. It is knowledge.
Madhudvisa: If I can’t see, then it means faith.
Prabhupada: No, you can’t see. You are rascal; how you will see? Just like an astrologer can say it is going to happen. You cannot see, but he can see.
Madhudvisa: That means I have to have faith, though.
Prabhupada: It is not faith. It is fact. If I say that “At 6:30 in the evening there will be no sun,” it is not faith; it is fact. But a rascal does not say… “No, why? The sun is there. Why there will be no sun?” But intelligent man will say, “No, there will be no sun.” It is neither astrology, neither anything. It is knowledge. You have no knowledge; you do not know. I have knowledge; I can tell. That is the way.
Madhudvisa: But I must believe that knowledge.
Prabhupada: But you are rascal, “I believe.” Learn how to believe it, how to see it.
Madhudvisa: But I have another teacher who can teach me something I can see.
Prabhupada: Pasyanti jnana-caksusa. Pasyanti jnana-caksusa. If you have got knowledge, then you can see. But you have no knowledge. How you can see? Therefore you have to go to a person where you get the knowledge. Then you will see. Another example is that in the desert the animal is seeing there is water.
Prabhupada: He is seeing. And the man knows that there is no water. That is the difference between animal and man. The animal cannot see. The man can see. So become a perfect man. Then you’ll see everything.
Trivikrama: Another example you give. When we see the sun it looks like a small disk.
Prabhupada: There are so many examples. Why you believe your rascal eyes? Why you are proud of seeing? You cannot see.
Devotee: They may say in relation to that…
Prabhupada: You have got the same eyes, but when it is dark you cannot see. Then what is the value of your eyes? You see under condition. That is not absolute. [break] …should be informed that why you have changed? Now, the Russian and Chinese, first of all they began believing Lenin or Marx.
Madhudvisa: Marx was the original.
Prabhupada: Now they are not in agreement. Why?
Tamala Krsna: They saw practically… It was impractical.
Prabhupada: That means for advancement of knowledge you have to change. They accept this theory, revolution. So if you get better situation, why you’ll not change?
Gopala Krsna: They accept a better theory when it is presented.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is presented. This is the beginning, that “Your knowledge is imperfect. You are believing your eyes, but that is not perfect knowledge. You have to see with knowledge.” Pasyati jnana… Pasyanti jnana-caksusa. Sastra-caksusat. That is seeing, not seeing like a child. A child is seeing, a motor car is running, a airplane is running. He thinks a wonderful machine, but it is not the machine. It is the pilot. It is the driver. A child cannot see it. The father knows that it is not the machine. The machine may be however perfectly made; it cannot run. There must be a perfect pilot also. Just like we get on aeroplane. There are hundreds of men. If there is any trouble, then the pilot can stop it, not the hundreds of men.
Mahendra: In these Communist countries, Srila Prabhupada, such as Russia…
Prabhupada: Not Communist country, everywhere, a pilot is required. Not Communist country.
Pusta Krsna: Every country has a leader.
Prabhupada: Yes. So these… All this ism, Communism, this ism, this ism, beginning from that Greek history, so many changes have been made in Europe, leaders, sometimes Napoleon, sometimes Mussolini, sometimes Hitler. It is going on. So where is the perfect situation? You have changed so many leaders for so many years in the history, but where is your perfect situation?
Tamala Krsna: We have one leader, and our situation is perfect, and we are not changing that leader.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is perfection. We have taken Krsna as leader. We are not taking any other leader.
Mahamsa: In thousands of years.
Tamala Krsna: Hundreds and thousands of years.
Prabhupada: Millions of years.
Mahamsa: So many constitutions, they have been amended so many times. But the Bhagavad-gita has not been amended since so many millions of years.
Prabhupada: It cannot be amended. Just like this rule, dehino ‘smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. When the change of body, how you can change the rule? A perfect definition. You cannot change it. [break] …religion, the so-called religion, it is changed. Formerly there was no Christianity and now Christianity. Now, from Christianity, so many others, so many others. That is not religion.
Revatinandana: If you say that your leader is perfect and you do not change your leader, we see that in India… This is where Krsna came. He is your leader, but they do not follow Krsna any more and India is in trouble.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the right thing.
Revatinandana: But why do they not follow if He is perfect leader?
Prabhupada: That is their misfortune.
Revatinandana: They argue like that.
Prabhupada: That is their misfortune. Just like father says, “Child do this,” but he does not do. Father says, “Don’t touch fire;” he touches, so he’ll suffer.
Madhudvisa: They can also say that about their leader. They can say that according to Marx, if everyone followed Marx purely, then the Communist system would be running on…
Prabhupada: No, no, what is the purity?
Madhudvisa: Well, the pure Communist philosophy.
Prabhupada: What is that pure Communist philosophy? State. We state, “This is our philosophy.” What is the Marx philosophy?
Pusta Krsna: Ultimately, they say there should be no leader. Everything will work automatically.
Prabhupada: But you have leader, rascal. Why do you say no leader? Immediately take shoes and beat with them.
Mahendra: They say that in the future there will be no leaders.
Prabhupada: Again beat threes, thrice. But we are not so fool that we are going to believe in your future postdated check. We are not so fool. Present right check.
Pusta Krsna: We don’t accept blindly.
Prabhupada: Immediately payable. Then we accept.
Madhudvisa: They will accept that there has to be a leader…
Prabhupada: Yes, they must have. They must have.
Madhudvisa: But the leader should not be a person which is held in esteem for his personality but simply a person who is guiding the system.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Then that is Krsna. He is giving this leader. This is a fact.
Trivikrama: And their leader can never be perfect.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Trivikrama: The Communist leader.
Prabhupada: You can become perfect if you follow a perfect leader. That’s all.
Lokanatha: Just like some gurus say there is no need of guru.
Tamala Krsna: The trouble is, their system is not perfect. Our system is…
Prabhupada: How it can be? Because the leader who introduced this system is a rascal, so how the system can be perfect?
Tamala Krsna: Just like you pointed out yesterday that Communism holds that everyone should have an equal right, but, you pointed out, then why do they limit that simply to human beings?
Tamala Krsna: It is imperfect system.
Prabhupada: Why they become sectarian?
Madhudvisa: They will say this is the natural development. When a system develops to this size there will be…
Prabhupada: That you cannot change, natural development. You rascal, why you become leader? I don’t require your leadership if everything is going on by nature.
Madhudvisa: No, it requires a guide.
Prabhupada: No, because you are rascal, you are under nature. So how you can guide me? Your position is the same. You are blind; I am blind. How you can lead me?
Madhudvisa: They won’t say that.
Prabhupada: So they won’t say means…
Madhudvisa: They say that…
Prabhupada: Why shall I accept a blind leader? If a blind… I am blind, and if a blind man says, “Come on, I shall guide you,” why shall I accept that leader?
Madhudvisa: Their contention is not that, though. Their contention is that Mao Tse Tung, along with being the political leader, is also the spiritual guide of the people.
Prabhupada: Political, social is not. The leader must be perfect. If the leader is blind, how can I accept such blind leader? I am blind man. What is the use? I am blind; therefore I am asking, “Can you help me to cross the road?” Another blind, “Yes, yes, come on, I shall.” Why shall I accept? First of all I shall ask, “You have got eyes?” “No, I am also blind.” What is this nonsense?
Tamala Krsna: Do they admit their leader to be blind?
Devotee: No. They use their leader’s book as Bible.
Prabhupada: Then why you change? Why you change?
Devotee: They don’t change. They follow Mao.
Prabhupada: Yes. They… They say there is necessity of revolution. The Communist theory they accept, that periodically there is need of revolution.
Dhrstadyumna: But it all culminates.
Madhudvisa: That’s not to change. That’s not to change.
Prabhupada: You have change, change of the system.
Madhudvisa: No, that’s not to change the system. That’s to purify it.
Prabhupada: That change of the leader…
Madhudvisa: That’s to purge the system.
Revatinandana: Continuous purification.
Prabhupada: That’s means… Purge out means it is not perfect.
Madhudvisa: No, they will say that in any system…
Prabhupada: No, no.
Madhudvisa: …over the years they are dealing with millions of people.
Prabhupada: No, but if I can give you any system which is perfect, why you’ll not accept it? Why you are so fool?
Madhudvisa: Then, if you can give a system that people will not deviate?
Madhudvisa: Any system people can deviate from…
Prabhupada: No, no, deviate, that you have got independence to deviate from anything.
Madhudvisa: So that is the imperfection.
Prabhupada: That is your imperfection.
Madhudvisa: So they will say that is the imperfection in Communism, also, that the system is perfect but we have imperfect people.
Prabhupada: But if there is an ism where there is no such defects, why should you not accept it?
Madhudvisa: But there is defects, though.
Tamala Krsna: They can point out even within our own movement the different people who don’t follow.
Trivikrama: Don’t follow but the system is perfect.
Tamala Krsna: So they’ll say their system is also perfect, but there’s some that don’t follow.
Trivikrama: No, but their system is not perfect.
Tamala Krsna: That you have to establish.
Bhagavata: So it didn’t save the man who created it. The man who founded the philosophy, it didn’t save him.
Madhudvisa: What does it mean the saving? He died like everyone else.
Trivikrama: Saving means saving from lust and all these things. There’s so much… They’re servants of their senses.
Pusta Krsna: Everyone requires leader, yes, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: That is a fact.
Pusta Krsna: So they are changing leaders one after another because they think that the present leader will satisfy their present desires more.
Prabhupada: The leader, perfect leader, is God. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). That nitya and cetana, all living entities, we are eternal, and we are conscious. And He is the supreme conscious. Therefore God means Supreme Being. You take His leadership. Then He’ll properly guide you. That is our philosophy.
Madhudvisa: Srila Prabhupada, actually, I think it was either Marx or…
Prabhupada: But the leader says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo: [Bg. 18.66] “I shall give you protection from all pitfalls.” This is. We also accept leader, but the most perfect leader, who can actually give me protection from all dangers. So Sridhara, when you go, you take some letters from me. So what happened about Ganguli? [break] …this nature. Just like a child is born. Immediately requires protection by mother.
Tamala Krsna: What… Srila Prabhupada, what are the qualifications of a perfect leader?
Prabhupada: No mistake, no illusion, no cheating, no imperfection. Anyone who commits mistake, he’s illusioned, he’s a cheater and imperfect — he cannot lead. So bring any leader of these rascal groups and test with these four principles; he is misleader.
Trivikrama: They’re all servants of their senses.
Madhudvisa: They will also say that within our movement the so-called leaders also have imperfections.
Madhudvisa: They will say, within our movement, that the leaders also have imperfection.
Prabhupada: No imperfection.
Trivikrama: No imperfection.
Madhudvisa: They will say, “Yes, we can give you examples.”
Prabhupada: No. No, no. Why? Why you shall accept? They will say. Because therefore they are saying, we shall accept?
Tamala Krsna: Here’s Prabhupada. Here’s Prabhupada
Trivikrama: The so-called leaders, maybe they are imperfect, but the real leader, He is perfect.
Prabhupada: Yes, this is test of.
Madhudvisa: They will say, “He is also makes mistakes.”
Tamala Krsna: Where is that mistake?
Prabhupada: No, there is no mistake.
Tamala Krsna: We have not seen any mistakes.
Gurudasa: Where is the mistake?
Prabhupada: There is no mistake.
Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada?
Tamala Krsna: What would you define…
Prabhupada: If you think your leader is mistaken, then you are mistaken. (laughter)
Mahendra: Like a mirror. You see a mistake but it’s yourself.
Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: The leader of mistake-therefore immediately gives evidence from sastra. What is the use of quoting from the sastra? “Just to prove that I am not mistaken, here is the proof.”
Madhudvisa: They would say that there is a way of life which is perfect, but all men are imperfect. There is a way of life.
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore they… Because you are imperfect, therefore you have to accept the leadership of a perfect person.
Madhudvisa: They will say no one is perfect.
Prabhupada: No, that is the… That is your ignorance.
Tamala Krsna: You have never seen…
Prabhupada: Now, just like blind man says, “Nobody is with eyes. Because I am blind, so everyone is blind.” Atmavat manyate jagat. That is the way.
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, the whole thing is actually nonsense because Marx himself in his old age became senile and died in a crazy condition.
Prabhupada: Yes, he must be. He was crazy always. Many, many leaders die like that.
Trivikrama: Every leader.
Madhudvisa: They will point out that our acaryas also died. You say that Marx died, so they will say, “Your acaryas also died.”
Prabhupada: Dying, that… There is difference of dying. But nobody, he died… They did not die a crazy. That is the superexcellence.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, he died gloriously.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not only that, that he prepared himself, “Now I am going to die. Now I am sleeping. You just pierce with your arrow.” So where is that death? Even that death is perfect.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, it’s glorified from time immemorial.
Trivikrama: Like Haridasa Thakura.
Prabhupada: Actually it is not death, but if you take it as death, that is also glorified.
Tamala Krsna: It’s wonderful.
Tamala Krsna: Look at Lord Caitanya’s disappearance. Wonderful.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break]
Tamala Krsna: A leader means that he’s following a system. So what are the criterion of…?
Prabhupada: That already told. He does not commit any mistake.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that I understand.
Prabhupada: He is not illusioned, he is not a cheater, and he is perfect.
Tamala Krsna: So now you’ve defined a perfect leader. What is a perfect system? What are the criterion for a perfect system?
Prabhupada: Perfect system means from which we do not suffer. That’s all.
Tamala Krsna: No suffering.
Prabhupada: No suffering.
Tamala Krsna: That is the main criterion.
Prabhupada: Yes. We are always hankering after happiness. So we do not like suffering. So if there is no suffering, that is perfect system.
Tamala Krsna: Can you point out any time in history when there existed such a perfect system?
Prabhupada: It is always existing.
Tamala Krsna: Even now?
Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness. Otherwise why you are sticking to this? This is the proof. You are all young men, you have given up everything. Why you are sticking to Krsna consciousness?
Revatinandana: In the West so many young men are joining different groups?
Prabhupada: They may be rascals. Therefore, therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu… [break] …told me it is full. But people coming and going, it looks very nice.
Tamala Krsna: Like a house when it has no occupants, it’s not so nice as when there are people moving about.
Prabhupada: Yes. Canakya Pandita says, putra-hinam grham sunyam: “In a home where there is no children, sons and daughters, it is zero.”
Tamala Krsna: Just like a body without a soul.
Prabhupada: Yes. Caitya-guru… (Bengali) [break] You are not going to China?
Tamala Krsna: No, we not so impressed by roti here, but it is really a…
Prabhupada: Very nice, a good news. You are eating nicely. That gives me pleasure.
Tamala Krsna: Everybody is so satisfied. This… What is it? Shantilal is just a wonderful cook.
Prabhupada: So just give him the leadership of cooking everywhere. When the prasada is supplied?
Tamala Krsna: At one o’clock.
Prabhupada: So you can send me at half past one?
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Oh, yes, it can be kept warm very easily. Hot capatis, he says, for hundreds of people.
Prabhupada: Hot. That is wanted. That I had asked. Therefore it is so filling.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, everything is hot. [break] …so…
Prabhupada: No, no. Prasadam, when it is supplied from the temple, in any condition it is prasadam. So communists should be impressed that “You are trying to establish a perfect society. That is your philosophy. So unless there is perfect leader, how you can establish?” This is the way.
Tamala Krsna: And we know what the qualities of a perfect leader are. “We don’t find that you have any such persons.”
Prabhupada: No, phalena pariciyate, by result. (kirtana as they approach temple) (end)