Hrdayananda: …puffed up with knowledge.

Prabhupada: What is their knowledge, nonsense? He has know…? Have they knowledge?

Bhagavan: They’re trying to prove that sense gratification is bona fide.

Guru-krpa: …and the explanation of…

Prabhupada: And where is sense gratification? As soon as nature kicks you out, where is your sense gratification?

Hrdayananda: It’s a relative thing. Actually, compared to the ordinary man, he’s much more intelligent.

Prabhupada: What is intelligence?

Hrdayananda: He’s thinking that “I know so many things, and these other people, they don’t know these things. Therefore I’m better than them.”

Prabhupada: So the birds and beasts, they know better than you many things. There are many birds and beasts.

Guru-krpa: “They can’t… They can’t explain it.”

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guru-krpa: “They can’t explain it.”

Prabhupada: You also cannot explain. What is explaining? All nonsense.

Guru-krpa: “Well, I can explain.”

Prabhupada: “Perhaps.” “Might be.” “It was like this and that…” What is that explanation?

Guru-krpa: Well, the common man doesn’t challenge that.

Prabhupada: Mean common men are fool. But why we should accept?

Bhagavan: If they could really explain it, so many things would not be going wrong.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Bhagavan: If they could actually explain it, so many things would not be going wrong. The thing is, their explanation causes more problems.

Satsvarupa: But they say that…, When we say that everything is done by Krsna, they say that’s also “perhaps, maybe.” They don’t see…

Prabhupada: No, we have got evidence. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. We have got evidence.

Satsvarupa: As we don’t accept theirs, they don’t accept ours.

Prabhupada: You don’t accept… You don’t… Why shall I accept you? You don’t accept me, I don’t accept you. Why you become authority?

Guru-krpa: Then they say “Finished. Get out.”

Prabhupada: Yes. No, my question is that “Why they become atheists, a little knowledge, so-called scientists?”

Madhudvisa: They have to become atheists.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Madhudvisa: They have to become atheist. If they don’t become atheists, then they can’t play their games anymore. The idea of their research finishes as soon as you admit that there is God. But if you say, “There’s no God,” then they can research. It was explained that…

Prabhupada: They can continue to befool you, that, and take money. And as soon as you don’t give them money, there is no research. Then they starve.

Pusta Krsna: We’ve seen, though, from examples in the Vedic literatures like Visvakarma and Ayur Vedic medicine, that it’s possible to engage in architecture, medicine, such activities, without being atheistic. So it must not simply be that they’re scientists, but that they’re actually…

Bhagavan: Demons.

Pusta Krsna: Demons.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: Asuram bhavam asritah [Bg. 7.15].

Yasodanandana: The actual motive is to fill the belly.

Prabhupada: Moghasa mogha-karmanah.

Bhagavan: Actually they’re envious, because they say that “There is no Supreme Person controlling,” but then, on the other hand, they want to become the supreme person controlling.

Prabhupada: They cannot.

Bhagavan: So it’s just a matter of envy.

Pusta Krsna: Who was that demon? He got some benediction from Lord Siva. [break] Anyone he touched, his head would fall off, but he wanted to use it against Lord Siva. [break]

Prabhupada: When one is jealous of God, then gradually jealous of everyone.

Pusta Krsna: Jealousy.

Prabhupada: Jealousy, yes.

Siddha-svarupananda: So then, if I’m jealous of others, it’s really just a reflection of my jealousy of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Siddha-svarupananda: And if I am angry at others, it’s because I’m angry at Krsna also.

Prabhupada: Everything begins from Krsna. Mattah sarvam pravartate.

Prabhupada: Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… Sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. Sas. Sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. Sastra. Sastra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…

Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.

Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. Disciple means one who follows the discipline. So…

Siddha-svarupa: So there is no disagreement with that. I have no disagreement.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the point. That is…

Siddha-svarupa: But I consider that discipline and the person being disciplined must be voluntary. He must voluntarily put himself under someone’s discipline.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is… Accepting spiritual master means voluntarily accepting somebody to rule him. There is no question… I have no power to rule over you unless you voluntarily surrender.

Siddha-svarupa: Yes.

Prabhupada: I am Indian. Why, you Americans, you should obey me? You have done it voluntarily. Yes. So, (chuckles) in India they appreciate me only on this point, that I am Indian; how I am controlling so many Americans? That is their appreciation. (laughter) So this acceptance of guru means voluntarily surrender. Yes. Sisyas te ‘ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. The instruction is there in the… They were friends, Krsna and Arjuna. From material point of view, they are equal. He is also belonging to the royal family, he is also belonging to the royal family, and they are cousin brothers, equal footing, friend. But still, Arjuna said, “Now there is no solution. I become Your disciple.” Sisyas te ‘ham sadhi mam prapannam: “I surrender.” And this is sisya, surrender. And then lessons on Bhagavad-gita began. So we have to surrender voluntarily; otherwise discipline cannot be implemented. That is wanted. Sisyas te ‘ham sadhi mam prapannam.

Guru-krpa: Srila Prabhupada, it mentions in The Nectar of Devotion that in the viddhi-marga there are many things we don’t want to do but we must do in order to make advancement.

Prabhupada: No, that is also modern government, democracy. I do not want to do something, but the Parliament pass the laws. We have to do, even I do not like. That is discipline. Just like C. R. Das. C. R. Das was one of the prominent member of Indian Congress. So he was earning in those days, fifty years ago, fifty thousand rupees per month. It is twenty times now increased. Fifty years before he was…

Tamala Krsna: Nowadays ten lakhs per month.

Prabhupada: At least five lakhs he was earning. So the Congress resolution was that “noncooperation,” so “Boycott British court. We are not going on.” So resolution that everyone should give up practice of law in the British court. Resolution. So C. R. Das did not like that idea. He said that “I am earning fifty thousand. I can give the whole amount for Congress propaganda. Why you are asking me to give up this practice?” So the resolution was, “No, we should noncooperate. We don’t want money. We should noncooperate.” So when… He fought in the meeting that “This should be withdrawn.” So it was not withdrawn. Then he resigned. Then he resigned. He became practically poverty-stricken, because he was earning fifty thousand rupees per month, and he had no practice, and he was not keeping any money in the bank. When he resigned, then some of his friend, Muhammad Ali… He was also one of the prominent members. He asked, “Mr. Das, what is your bank balance?” So he replied, “I do not know what is my bank balance, but I know I am debtor to the bank by two lakhs.” The bank was giving him credit, so this was his position. So my point is that when the… He fought his best that “This resolution should be withdrawn, boycott of British court,” but it was not done. But although he was very strong protester, still he had to do it. This is modern democracy. If the majority votes is in favor of something, even if I do not like it, I’ll have to accept it. That is, of course, the so-called democracy. That…, we do not accept that. Our obedience is to the spiritual master. So in this way we should… If there is any misunderstanding, this should be adjusted and we should work wholeheartedly, because our responsibility is very great. We are trying to contribute something to the whole world. (end)