Prabhupada: …no more desire of material enjoyment he is fit for sannyasa. Anyone who sees: “Oh, this car is very nice. This beautiful wife is very… A very beautiful woman is very nice,” he should not think of taking sannyasa. Visa-bhaksanad apy asadhu: “Such desires is most abominable, more than taking poison.” To commit suicide by taking poison is most abominable thing, because he’s going to be a ghost. He’ll be punished to become a ghost, those who commit suicide. Or, if one is suddenly killed and he has so many desires, he becomes ghost. Therefore visa-bhaksana, taking poison, and die untimely, is most abominable, or commit suicide. By the material law also, to attempt to commit suicide is criminal. You know that?

Devotees: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Yes. It is criminal. (Bengali) If you take s annyasa… Just like there are so many sannyasis, for filling up the belly. Wherever you go they give some alms. But in…, outside India, who cares for the sannyasi? Then why you should be eager to take sannyasa and cheat yourself? You cannot cheat others, but you can cheat yourself.

Hrdayananda: Outside India a sannyasi will starve.

Prabhupada: (laughs) So I do not know why our disciples are so anxious to take sannyasa, at least those who are outside. Everyone comes: “Give me sannyasa.” What is the idea?

Jayapataka: Freedom from authority.

Prabhupada: Eh? Eh? Who cares him, for authority.

Jayapataka: No, they, they don’t want to take order as brahmacari. If they’re sannyasi they think they can do as they feel.

Gopala Krsna: They all want to become leaders.

Prabhupada: So what kind of leader? If you cannot lead others, what kind of leader?

Jayapataka: That’s why a brahmacari should…

Prabhupada: If you mislead them, if you mislead them, then what is the use of taking leadership?

Jayapataka: That’s why that system where a brahmacari is recommended for one year and then he proves himself by doing some extraordinary preaching work is a very good system. Otherwise, anyone just comes and by pressurizing and begging and pleading, then they try to take sannyasa. Then they don’t stay to the path.

Prabhupada: Sannyasa means ultimate success, because this human life is meant for becoming disgusted with this material life: “No more.” Material life means to take a body and enjoy this material ahara-nidra, sleeping twenty-four hours, eating like elephant, and sex life like a monkey, these animals. This is material life, eating, sleeping, mating, and always afraid of. This is material life. And human life means to take freedom from these four things: no more afraid, no more sex, no more hankering after eating or sleeping. That is success. Everyone… You’ll see in the sparrow in the morning. They’re enjoying sex. So this is material life: eating, sleeping, mating and fearing. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam ca. And spiritual life means to become free from all this nonsense. That is spiritual life. They do not know what is spiritual life. The whole world, they do not know what is spiritual life. This is spiritual life, to become free from these four abominable things.

Hrdayananda: They are trying to increase these four things.

Prabhupada: That means cheating themselves. What is the use of taking sannyasa and cheat yourself? Material life means punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], repeatedly doing the same thing. Either as human being or as monkey or as a small ant or the demigods, but doing the business is the same, four things: eating, sleeping, mating and fearing. In different scale, doing the same business. Therefore it is called punah punah, “again and again,” carvita-carvananam, “chewing the chewed.” If one is sober, he thinks that “These four business, I have done many, many lives, as sparrow, or as jackal, or as demigod, and I have got this human form. Again I am doing this? So what is benefit of this human form of life?” This is sense. “I got this valuable life, and I am still doing the same thing as dogs and cats and sparrows? Then what is the difference between me and the dogs?” That is sense. “What is my better engagement?” That better engagement is Krsna consciousness. Then his life is successful. Otherwise what is the use of…? Again become a sparrow. Again wait for millions of years to come by evolutionary process to the human form of life. You see? This is going on. Punah punas carvita-carvananam adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. Because they cannot control the sense, they are going in the darkest part of this material existence.

Dayananda: Srila Prabhupada, it seems that in youth the desire to enjoy is so much stronger than in old age.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Dayananda: It seems that in youth it is, the desire to enjoy is stronger than in old age.

Prabhupada: That is foolishness. An old man is still stronger, but instruments are finished. He cannot enjoy. But the desire is there. You don’t think that old man has got less desire than the young man. He has got the desire, but his instrument is finished.

Hrdayananda: So much frustration.

Prabhupada: Not. He cannot use the instruments for enjoyment.

Hrdayananda: So he’s frustrated.

Prabhupada: Frustrated? Everyone. Whether young or not, everyone is frustrated. He says that the desire in old man… It is expected because he has gone through the grhastha life. Grhastha life is a concession for sex life. That’s all. It is not needed. But those who are unable to avoid it — “All right, have for some time. Then become sannyasi.” This is the process. It is not needed. So in old age, after going through these stages, brahmacari is learning how to stop this sex life, and then, if one is still unable — “All right, take concession for twenty-five years. Then give up this habit. Then take sannyasa.” So that is the process, one who has gone through the stages, expected that he has no more… ara nari bapa (?) “I have done…” But generally, those who are not trained up, their desire is not diminished. They have got the… That you see in your country, Western country. Seventy-five, eighty years old, they are going to the nightclub.

Hrdayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: Paying hundreds and thousands of dollars. Where is the…? He has lost all capacity, but still, he’ll go. Still, he’ll go. This is called punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. In the club, the son is also dancing with the girl, and the old father is dancing, and by chance, they come in contact. The Western civilization is for this, ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithuna, eat voraciously, and all become diabetics. They have got diabetes club, association. That means… What is this? Diabetes is the result of voracious eating. That’s all. In old age it becomes very prominent because he eats voraciously, but he cannot digest. And all these foodstuffs becomes… What is called? Glucose?

Hari-sauri: Right.

Prabhupada: And then diabetes. The beginning-ahara, eating. That gentleman, that doctor who has given us that review, he has. He’s very learned man.

Indian man (1): Mr. Shannam?

Prabhupada: No, no. From France.

Devotee (2): The professor.

Prabhupada: Hm. He has mentioned, “From the Vedic standard, we are all uncivilized. We Westerners are uncivilized.” He has admitted that. Actually they are.

Dayananda: Yes, they will be shocked when they find this out because the idea is that…

Prabhupada: Now, just like a man is suffering from tuberculosis, and if his physician says that “You are attacked with tuberculosis,” then he’ll shocked. But the fact is there.

Dayananda: They think that the Vedic culture is uncivilized.

Prabhupada: They think because they are foolish rascals. They do not know what is the value of life. Big, big professor, he said, “Swamiji, after death everything is finished. There is no soul.” Professor Kotovsky. This is their education.

Dayananda: And then they wonder why their sons become hippies and act like monkeys. Even though they are civilized, their sons are acting like monkeys.

Prabhupada: Actually we are introducing the Krsna consciousness movement to make the Western people civilized. Yes. So you should take it very seriously and behave with responsibility. If you also want, become again like that, then how you’ll be able to preach? Then what is the use of preaching? What is time?

Indian man (1): Six-thirty.

Jayapataka: [Break] …process.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jayapataka: So is it necessary to be fixed up to take sannyasa, or one should take sannyasa to become fixed up?

Prabhupada: To become fixed, become sannyasi, the other three processes are there, to become brahmacari, to become grhastha, to become vanaprastha, stage by stage. But if one is able, he can take sannyasa. The stages are there, but if one is very competent, he can be given sannyasa. And that competency is also very simple. If you become fully Krsna conscious, then you can immediately become competent. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. As soon as you fully engage yourself in Krsna consciousness, then immediately you become more than a sannyasi.

Jayapataka: Your Divine Grace is so merciful because the Western people, they are habituated to so many bad habits which weren’t existed, existing in the Vedic time amongst the higher classes. Still, you are introducing all these things for them. Many times devotees, they don’t take that seriously.

Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna. (Bengali) Sadbhir bhaktih prasidhyati. What is this? [break] …our field or some other field, but food must be there. If you don’t eat sufficiently, how you’ll be able to work? Yuktahara-viharasya. We are not after dry speculation. Practical. Eat sufficiently. Work sufficiently. Don’t be lazy. But the danger is if you eat more than sufficient, then you’ll sleep sufficient. Therefore yuktahara, as much as you require, take it. Don’t take more; don’t take less. This is the law of nature. Just like salt. You salt require. But if you take more, it is useless, and if you take less, it is useless. If in the vegetable the salt is more, then it is uneatable; if it is less, uneatable. Take as it is. It is not that “Because there is ocean of salt, let me three pounds’ salt.” That is going on. “Oh, it is available? Now let me eat.” And then he becomes sick.

Dayananda: For somebody who can work more, then he can eat little more.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Dayananda: If somebody can work more, then he can eat more.

Prabhupada: No. Work more and work less doesn’t matter. If he’s actually hungry, he can take. Work must be there. If he does not work, what is the use of eating?

Jayapataka: This program…

Prabhupada: Eh?

Jayapataka: The difficulty that every person has not got the same mentality… One…

Prabhupada: That… That will depend on the preaching of the sannyasis. What is this? Frame?

Indian man (1): It’s a hot iron building, Prabhupada.

Hari-sauri: It’s the wrong type of renunciation.

Prabhupada: There is no renunciation. There is sense gratification. “I like this.” That’s all. He is thinking that “I am so renounced,” but he’s still satisfying his senses. That’s all. As soon as we manufacture something, that is sense gratification. “I want to fulfill my desire. That’s all.” That is sense gratification. It may be I sit down on the tree, or I may sit down on the palace. That is sense… The basic principle is sense gratification. The other day I was talking about hira-cora and ksira-cora. Hira means diamond. And ksira means…

Devotees: Cucumber.

Prabhupada: “I shall steal. I shall steal one cucumber.” And another one thinks, “If I steal, I shall steal the diamond.” But the stealing propensity is there, hira-cora or ksira-cora. “Well, I am stealing one…, only one cucumber. That is not very dangerous.” But, but to the eyes of law, both of them are criminal, either you take hira or ksira. Big thief and small thief, that’s all. Thief. You are thief. So we manufacture concoction that “Yes, I have got this stealing propensity. So I’ll not steal diamond. I’ll steal ksira, not hira.” This is only mental concoction, but he is a thief.

Jayapataka: I think this side’s…

Prabhupada: Hm ?

Jayapataka: So grhastha life is Krsna allowing us to steal ksira?

Prabhupada: Hm? Yes, ksira-cora. The prostitute-hunter is hira-cora, and he’s a ksira-cora. That’s all.

Hari-sauri: [break] …sense gratification that comes from renouncing like that, that’s like the Mayavadis.

Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?

Hari-sauri: By artificial renouncing everything, they’re actually simply another form of sense gratification.

Prabhupada: Not artificial. It is a process. We have to give up this sense gratification. Go through a process to trained up. Just like sometimes in the club there is artificial swimming. Is it not? Artificial swimming. That is not swimming. But to practice something.

Hrdayananda: Or the…

Dayananda: But sometimes people who renounce like that, they become very proud. What is that?

Prabhupada: Yes. Hm.

Jagad-guru: Srila Prabhupada, are you pleased when your disciples do things like that?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Jagad-guru: Are you pleased when your disciples do things like that…?

Prabhupada: Artificial?

Jagad-guru: Well, such things as Sharma Prabhu’s doing.

Prabhupada: I do not know. What is that? What is his question?

Devotee (2): He asked if you’re pleased if your disciples do things like Sharma, if they, like, go to live in trees and do artificial renunciation?

Prabhupada: No, he’s trying. That’s all. But active service is more important.

Hrdayananda: Hm. That is your example.

Prabhupada: But something is better than nothing. If he goes, goes away to practice somewhere else, better give him chance to practice this. He’s not doing anything bad. That is good. That is… But the better service is to be active servant, servitor.

Hari-sauri: That’s your mercy on us.

Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personally He gives example. He could have done at His home. Why He took sannyasa and went out of home?

Devotee (3): We have one boy at the temple, Srila Prabhupada, and he doesn’t want to do any work. He simply reads, and he says that “I will not do any work now, but when I become realized by reading,” he says, “then I will engage in work.”

Prabhupada: No, no, he’s reading. That is working. If he’s… But he is sleeping, that is another thing. In the name of reading, sometimes we sleep. If that is not done, it is all right. He’s reading. That’s all right. But if he shows that “I am reading,” but he’s sleeping secretly, that is bad. To see that he’s not sleeping, he’s actually reading.

Indian devotee (4): He’s life member also, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: :Hm? Anyway, if he’s doing something, that’s good.

Hari-sauri: I read where you said that if one simply reads, though, one cannot become realized in the philosophy. One has to actually do something practical, and then the realization will be there from what he has read.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jayapataka: [break] …are nondifferent.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Jayapataka: Service and reading are nondifferent?

Prabhupada: Yes, if one is actually reading. Just like Rupa Gosvami. He was reading. Nana-sastra-vicaranaika-nipunau. But he must be expertly reading, not as a book worm, expert.

Jayapataka: And on the other hand, sometimes devotees are only engaged in service, and then, without reading, and they…

Prabhupada: But every, everyone… You cannot expect everyone is capable for reading.

Jayapataka: They have desire to read, but they have no opportunity. And then in their service, they become… They lose sight sometimes, where they, because of fallen condition, they cannot remember Krsna in their service. But while reading, one can easily…, cannot help but remember Krsna.

Prabhupada: If he cannot remember Krsna, he will sleep. That is the test. When you have seen so many reading but sleeping, that means there is no Krsna. Yahan krsna tahan nahi mayara adhikara. Sleeping is maya, so if he’s thinking of Krsna, there cannot be sleeping.

Jayapataka: No, I’m talking not about the reading half, but the service half.

Prabhupada: Service also… Everything depends on advancement in Krsna consciousness. If Krsna is there, either you read or work as a coolie, the same thing.

Jayapataka: You instructed that service is as good as reading, but only… We see that devotees only doing service without reading, then they become agitated in their mind.

Prabhupada: That means there is no Krsna. The real disease is there is no Krsna. Therefore he’ll be agitated, either reading or working.

Jayapataka: So how can they, the Krsna…?

Prabhupada: That, if they… One must go through this practice. Everyone must attend the ara…, mangala-aratrika. One must attend this. One must attend this. Otherwise no prasadam. If one says, “I am sick,” no prasadam. “You are sick. You cannot digest. That’s all.” And sick, sleeping, and at the time of prasadam, voracious eating, that is not sickness. If you are sick, you cannot take food. Don’t take. (end)

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