Prabhupada: They do not study all this science, why there are so many varieties of life, of different grades. Wherefrom they are coming?

Pusta Krsna: The living entity, then, in the tree is actually conscious of its condition of life.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Pusta Krsna: The living entity inside the tree is actually conscious of its condition of life.

Prabhupada: Not advanced consciousness, but he is conscious. He feels. He feels.

Harikesa: It shocked a lot of people when they made the test of bringing a scissor to a plant, and they put some electrodes on it and they found that the plant was reacting with fear.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That machine has been discovered by Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose. He discovered this wireless telegram, radio. But Marconi took from him, and British government helped him.

Pusta Krsna: The British again.

Prabhupada: Britishers were advertising outside India that “Indians are uncivilized. Therefore we are making them civilized. Therefore we should stay there. Don’t object.” Because United Nations, they were asking, “Why you are occupying India?” So they used to forward this argument, that “These people are uncivilized. We are making them civilized.” (laughter) Now, how there should be Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose? Therefore they used to suppress always. Everything Indian wanted to do, they would suppress: big businesses, this mining… They would suppress. This Morarji, Sumati Morarji, her father-in-law started that… He had to face so many impediments from the Britishers to start the shipping company. Formerly there was no shipping company, Indian. Now, before that, there was shipping, not shipping company, but navigation was there from India to Rome, Greece, Turkey, there was regular business of spices and fine cloth. Later on, this large-scale shipping industry, that was done by the Europeans. So when Indian wanted to start, they would supress. The Tata iron industry, he had to face so many difficulties. Formerly, even if you wanted to bring some iron frame, it would come from Sheffield.

Pusta Krsna: From where?

Prabhupada: Sheffield.

Pusta Krsna: Oh, England.

Prabhupada: England. So everything Indian required, they would supply, and they would govern and they would exploit. Therefore they became so rich — simply by exploiting India. And Indian soldiers, they expanded empire-Africa, Burma. That’s all, all Indian exploitation, Indian men, money, and exploitation. As soon as they lost India, they lost whole empire.

Cyavana: Now they are also suffering.

Prabhupada: Eh? That… That must be. They will be suffering more and more. They will be beggars. They have done so much sinful activities for expanding their empire. Now they will have to become beggars. And within two hundred years, everything finished. They started their exploitation from seventeenth, eighteenth century. And in the twentieth century, everything finished. The French people and the English people… This is also one of the examples. Both the nations came here to exploit. That was the competition in… The French people and the English people, they would go for colonization, fight, and establi… America was also that, Canada, everywhere. But because they were their own men, they were given dominion status. Almost free.

Pusta Krsna: Greedy. Very greedy.

Brahmananda: At one time all of Africa was controlled by the European nations. Completely.

Prabhupada: Yes. Mainly these French and…

Brahmananda: French, British, Germans, Portuguese, Dutch, Spanish.

Pusta Krsna: In South Africa, the British also tried to take over South Africa. There was a war called the Boer War.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: So during World War I and World War II many of the South Africans, they actually sided with the Germans because they were against the English so much.

Prabhupada: African means black Africans. No?

Pusta Krsna: No. South Africans, they were Europeans. The British started the first concentration camp. They took these “Afrikaners” as they call them, Europeans. They put them on an island called St. Helena. That was actually the first concentration camp, by the British.

Prabhupada: This is going on. Still, even the opposite party, they are not disgusted — “This material life is not very peaceful.” They are not disgusted.

Brahmananda: Now they are thinking, “We’ll be independent…”

Prabhupada: Yes. That… They are trying to be independent. And India… Just like India has got independent, and now the position is “emergency.” They do not think in this way, that “Independence or dependence, we are actually dependent under the laws of nature.” That they do not think. They are thinking… The same example as I gave, that “This boil is here. Why not here? It is very painful,” like that. They have no sense that so-called dependence or independence, he has to suffer. That he does not know. Mudha nabhijanati.

Pusta Krsna: In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna explains, vasudeva sarvam iti, that He is everything and that He is everywhere.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: So this verse, mudho ‘ya nabhijanati, that the mudhas, they can’t perceive Krsna. So actually it’s simply that we’re covered, isn’t it? But Krsna is always there.

Prabhupada: Krsna is always there, but yogamaya-samavrtah. He does not know Krsna on account of being covered by the curtain of yogamaya. Naham prakasah sarvasya yogamaya-samavrtah [Bg. 7.25]. But we can make them all happy by Krsna consciousness, if they follow our instruction, even in this material world. Purnam sukhayate. Full happiness we can give them if they follow our principle.

Cyavana: They have so many doubts.

Prabhupada: What is the doubt? Doubt means they cannot drink, they cannot continue slaughterhouse, they cannot continue brothels. That’s all. This is their doubt, that “How these things will be maintained? This is our life.” That is doubt, and that is the difficulty. As soon as we say, “No this,” oh, they are in danger. Even Marquis of Zetland, “Oh, it is impossible to give up. This is our life.” There is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. They cannot think of, especially the Westerners, that without these things one can live. So many, our disciples, left. Rayarama left: “Oh, Swamiji is denying the preliminary necessities of life.” This is the preliminary necessities of life: illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, gambling. They cannot think that a man can live without these things. Therefore people are wonderful, that “How he is turning these Europeans, Americans to this standard?” That is their wonder. Nobody can think of, that these things can be given up and one can avoid it. It is dream. Your government, American government, is also surprised that “We have spent so much money for stopping this LSD, and this man by saying his disciples, they are giving up.” Judah has also mentioned that. That is their surprise — “How these things can be given up? It is impossible.”

Pusta Krsna: You once said in Geneva that no one has died by giving up smoking.

Prabhupada: Yes. Actually that is the fact. You have given up these four bad things, and what is your wrong, harm? Rather, you have become bright-faced. But they will not give it up. They think, “It is impossible.”

Brahmananda: They say we have just undergone some religious conversion and become fanatical, and therefore we have given up.

Prabhupada: No, why don’t you become fanatical? (laughter)

Pusta Krsna: Although it says in the Bible even that one should praise the Lord’s name with cymbals and drums…

Prabhupada: They have no concern with Bible and God and everything. They are simply after sense gratification. What is the use of quoting about Bible? They don’t care for Bible. The Europeans, Americans, they have rejected, thrown away, kicked out Bible because (it is) unscientific. Actually they do not accept. Although they call themselves Christian, they do not accept anything of Bible. That is… Bible is finished. There is no meaning of Bible. Simply for their sectarian prestige, they say “Bible.” But actually they have nothing to do with Bible. What do you think?

Pusta Krsna: Yes, it’s true.

Prabhupada: They do not go to the church, but they come to us for arguing with Bible. Just see. What is the meaning? Their churches have closed, nobody goes, and they come to argue with us with Bible. That means “The Devil cites scripture.” They are devils, and they are quoting from Bible.

Devotee (2): So many people who come to our program, they are Christians. There may be 75% who come. They are all Christians.

Prabhupada: That’s all right. We don’t discriminate whether he is Christian. We take everyone as human being, welcome. So what do they say? They also quote Bible?

Devotee (2): They say that their priests tell them, “You just listen to me and forget about the Bible.”

Prabhupada: And who are you? Then I can say also, “You hear me. Forget about Bible.” Anyone can say. Why the priest? Wherefrom the priest has come? Has he dropped from the sky? (laughter) That’s it. Everyone can say, “My dear priest, you hear me. Don’t talk of yourself. You hear me.” Everyone can say. Then? How things will be adjusted? The priest is also a man; I am also man. If he can say like that, I can say like that. Then who will make adjustment? Who is correct? Hm? How it will be adjusted? If everyone will propose something, and who will say, “Now, out of so many proposals, this is correct.” That means chaotic condition. If everyone says, “What I say, you hear.” Then who will hear? Everyone will say only. Who will hear? That is going on actually. And rascal Vivekananda says, “Everyone’s opinion is good.”

Pusta Krsna: Yatha mat tatha path.

Prabhupada: Yatha mat tatha path. This is going on. Everyone will say something, and it is all right. However nonsense it may be, it is all right. Even Gandhi followed that philosophy. Therefore he invented one, another philosophy, nonviolence, which is impossible. When Hindus approached him, that “You have got so much influence over the Mohammedans, so why not stop cow killing?” he said, “It is their religious principle. How can I interfere?” Just see.

Pusta Krsna: Krsi-go-raksya. Krsna orders in Bhagavad-gita, go-raksya.

Prabhupada: And he is considered to be a great scholar in Bhagavad-gita, and when cow protection was requested, he said that “How can I do it? It is their religious principle.” And he is a great big scholar in Bhagavad-gita. All nonsense, going on. Whole world is full of nonsense, mudhas, beginning from Gandhi to any rascal, all of them, rascals. Perhaps it is the first time we are detecting, “Here are all rascals.” It is first time. Then we are enemy of everyone. We call everyone rascal-Gandhi rascal, Vivekananda rascal, Aurobindo rascal. So actually they are, but people are thinking, “These people say all big, big men rascals? Therefore they are rascals.”

Cyavana: The average man doesn’t have the intelligence to discriminate between an intelligent man and a fool. He will listen to anyone.

Prabhupada: No, we have got this from the standard test tube, Krsna. Anyone who is not Krsna conscious, he is duskrtina, mudha. That’s all. We have no difficulty. Just like that urine test? We have got… One who has got that testing paper, red, yellow and so on, so on… So we have got this testing paper, Bhagavad-gita.

Pusta Krsna: [break] Prabhupada, Lord Caitanya’s weapons were His associates. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s weapons were His associates.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sangopangastra-parsadam. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura said, gaurangera sangi-gane, nitya-siddha kori mane: “All the associates of Lord Caitanya, they are ever liberated.” Nitya-siddha kori mane. “Anyone accepts the assistants of Lord Caitanya as ever liberated — he also becomes liberated, simply by accepting the associates of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu who is helping Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission, simply by accepting this, the man who is accepting, he becomes liberated.” Se jay brajendra-nanda pas. Gaurangera sangi-gane, nitya-siddha kori mane, se jay brajendra-nanda pas.

Cyavana: This is the way to go up.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] …this is a fact, that our Krsna consciousness is the topmost yoga, and preach it. This is a fact. Except we, Krsna consciousness, nobody knows anything — all mudhas. Any association, any religion — all mudhas. But you must prove yourself. Otherwise it will be bigotry. If you simply say that “We are only first class” without any knowledge… You have to defend yourself. There will be so many opposing elements. Then you become first class. Your position is first class, but you have to maintain it. Otherwise, they will say “religious fanatics.” Any opposition party, you have to meet. That is required.

Pusta Krsna: Would you like to sit for some time here, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: No. [break]

Pusta Krsna: [break] (Devotees have been teasing Pusta Krsna in background regarding his suggestion) He said, “Don’t bring milk when water is required.” I was just asking, you know.

Harikesa: Don’t bring milk when water is required. You have given the example.

Prabhupada: Don’t bring milk?

Devotees: When water is required.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Cyavana: But he was thinking that it would be very nice to sit there with Srila Prabhupada.

Pusta Krsna: No, no. No, I wasn’t. I was thinking of Prabhupada’s satisfaction. You’re thinking what I’m thinking…

Prabhupada: You are right. He was right. That is service. Before wanting, that is… That is all right. “Now let the master refuse it.” But service is: before he asks, the thing should be offered. That is service. After asking, offering something, that is second-class service. First-class service, before he wants, “Here is the thing, ready.” That is first-class service. Now it is his liking. He may not like that. He may ask something else. But the service must be offered. And your example, milk and water, is not applicable here. I did not ask him either milk or water. (laughter) So your example is futile.

Cyavana: Perfect.

Prabhupada: So don’t be discouraged.

Pusta Krsna: No, Prabhupada. I’ll never leave your lotus feet. They asked you about other movements yesterday at the press conference…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: …this movement and that movement. You said, “This is Krsna’s movement.” So this should be our line of argument, because especially amongst the Indian community, when they question us about this swami and that swami…

Prabhupada: They replied that in everything there is light. And yes, the light of, what is called, glowworm and the light of sun is not the same. Everything is light; that doesn’t… We haven’t got to accept so-called lights. Even there is light, when there is sunlight, why you should aspire after glow of light? (People chanting in background) Who is chanting Hare Krsna?

Cyavana: Everyone is saying Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: Hare Rama Hare Rama. (laughter)

Devotee (2): So all those sinful activities of these people have been eradicted now by saying Hare Rama?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Immediately. That is the special advantage of this age. Kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah [SB 12.3.51]. Immediately becomes free, mukta-sanga. Without becoming mukta-sanga, they cannot chant even. Why others are not chanting, they are chanting?

Devotee (2): But the same… That means they will make more sinful activities?

Prabhupada: If he does, that is another thing. Otherwise, for the time being, he is freed from all the reaction of sinful, immediately. Sadyah savanaya kalpate. Sadya, immediately. Immediately he becomes brahmana.

Pusta Krsna: Is pious activity on the material platform?

Prabhupada: No, no. It is transcendental, above pious activity. By accumulation of pious activities one may be elevated to the transcendental position. Krta-punya-punjah [SB 10.12.11]. Punya means pious activities. After doing for many, many years simply pious activities one may be elevated to the transcendental platform. So pious activities cannot be compared with transcendental activities. But it may help in the long run. Therefore transcendental activities does not depend on pious activity. It is not dependent. Then it will take long, long years. But automatically he becomes pious, achieves the result of pious activities.

Cyavana: [break] …the standard of morality, Arjuna’s activity of killing was immoral.

Prabhupada: Morality, immorality, this is all creation of mind. Real purpose of life, to serve the order of Krsna, that is real morality.

Pusta Krsna: I think that we must all be krpa-siddhi, because by your mercy you have lifted us out of hellish conditions of life.

Prabhupada: Krsna’s mercy. You have accepted Krsna’s mercy. This is the… [break] This empirical policy was very good, provided it would have been done for Krsna. Then they could unite the whole world.

Brahmananda: They had very good managing talent.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. But the whole thing was planned for their own sense gratification.

Brahmananda: Exploitation.

Pusta Krsna: If we ever had any kind of power like that and tried to do something like that, they would accuse that this is like the Crusades.

Prabhupada: Now, Crusades, even… If they could expand the ideas of Christian, love of Godhead, that was nice. But that was not the purpose. It is exploitation.

Pusta Krsna: Even by force?

Prabhupada: Yes. By force if you give some good medicine, that is good for him. In my childhood I would not take medicine. Exactly like this, now also. (laughter) So I was given medicine by force in the spoon. Two men will catch me and my mother take me on the lap and then force and I shall take. I never agreed to take any medicine.

Harikesa: Should we do that now, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Then you’ll kill me.

Harikesa: You would not go to school either.

Prabhupada: I don’t like… Yes.

Harikesa: You were telling us last year, you wanted to play mrdanga.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: The bus is coming.

Prabhupada: [break] …disagreement between my father and mother. My father would give me all independence, and mother was going that “You are spoiling the child by giving too much independence.”

Harikesa: Just see.

Prahupada: That is going on. Just like mother Yasoda. She would chastise Krsna. But you will never find Nanda Maharaja is ever chastising. Rather, when Krsna was chastised, Nanda Maharaja would come back and take Him on the lap: “All right, I shall punish Your mother,” and call him (her?), chastise. And then Krsna will stop His mouth: “No, no. Don’t do this.” It is natural that when the child is in the lower stage, minor stage, the mother takes more care. That is natural. [break] Such a big planet, sun, six months rotating on the northern side of the equator, six months on the southern side. It is never changed. Why?

Brahmananda: It’s an accident. (laughs)

Cyavana: The sun doesn’t change?

Prabhupada: No, the uttarayana. Now it is passing on the northern…

Brahmananda: Now it’s on the southern?

Prabhupada: Southern side, daksinayana, yes.

Pusta Krsna: The scientists say that the earth is actually tilting back and forth like this, that the sun is not…

Prabhupada: Why it is tilting, rascal? Stop it.

Cyavana: No. Every time is perfect.

Prabhupada: That is my question. That is answered in Brahma… Yasyajnaya, by the order of Govinda it is being done.

Pusta Krsna: The seasons are changing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yasyajnaya bhramati sambhrta-kala-cakrah. The orbit fixed up to the sun by the order of Govinda, that is being followed by him.

Devotee (2): Does the heat of the sun increase or decrease through the ages?

Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is in the hand of Krsna.

Pusta Krsna: But they are thinking He is just a historical figure.

Prabhupada: Therefore they’re rascals. Why do you say like that?

Pusta Krsna: Avajananti mam mudhah [Bg. 9.11].

Brahmananda: All glories to Srila Prabhupada. (end)

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