Prabhupada: similarly, a good soul means when there is no maya, then he’s good soul.

Bali-mardana: Or cloud.

Prabhupada: Huh? Cloud. maya is cloud. So what is that cloud?

Sudama: Forgetfulness of Krsna.

Prabhupada: That cloud is when a soul desires to become the master. That is cloud. (japa)

krsna bhuliya jiva bhoga-vancha kare

pasate maya tare japatiya dhare

As soon as a soul desires to be enjoyer, then he is immediately captured by maya. (japa) [break] …see the land?

Bali-mardana: You can go. I saw it yesterday.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Bali-mardana: I think it is in the opposite direction of the temple.

Prabhupada: Oh. [break] …formation of water?

Devotee: Do you know? A scientific explanation of water?

Bali-mardana: H-2-O. Hydrogen, two molecules of hydrogen, one molecule of oxygen.

Prabhupada: So in anywhere there is water, that formula is applicable?

Bali-mardana: Yes.

Prabhupada: So, within the dob there is water.

Bali-mardana: Yes.

Prabhupada: So who supplied the chemicals?

Bali-mardana: Within the dob?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bali-mardana: The chemist. The supreme chemist.

Prabhupada: So that is our theologist’s… What is their explanation?

Bali-mardana: They say the water is from the ground. By the roots, it is drawn up to the dob.

Prabhupada: I understand that. But the chemical is being supplied from the root?

Bali-mardana: Yes. Just like when there is no water they say the tree will die.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Bali-mardana: When there is no rain, the plant life cannot live. So they say that the water is drawn from the root to nourish the plant. [break]

Prabhupada: …water is drawn, then the question will be how the water is drawn?

Bali-mardana: Well, each tree has a system of, er, system of like tubes through which the water is drawn up.

Prabhupada: Then as soon as there is system, system is done by somebody.

Bali-mardana: Hm.

Satsvarupa: Nature, they say.

Bali-mardana: Nature, mother nature.

Prabhupada: Yes, then mother nature why does not allow you to draw water from the ground? Then mother nature has got sense.

Sudama: Why mother nature doesn’t let us draw water?

Prabhupada: Yes, we cannot draw water.

Bali-mardana: But from the well we can draw water.

Sudama: We can find water.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Satsvarupa: In the mouth we have to drink it.

Prabhupada: Not like the tree. Trees are called padapa. Padapa means it draws water from the leg. But why you cannot draw water from the leg, by the leg? Why you draw water by the hand?

Satsvarupa: Because it’s nature’s arrangement.

Prabhupada: That means nature has got sense.

Satsvarupa: They say that nature has simply the desire to see that the species is propagated.

Prabhupada: Anyway, when you see nature has arranged like that, just try to understand that the tree is made to draw water from the legs, but you cannot do. You have to draw water from the hand. Why different? As there is discrimination, there is sense. You should… It is nature’s, I mean to say, order that, or arrangement that “You shall draw water from the hand, and the tree shall draw from the leg.” So as there is different arrangement, there is discretion, why I am allowed to draw water by the hand and the tree is allowed to draw water from the leg.

Bali-mardana: They say that evolution.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, there is discretion. As soon as you say evolution, then evolution means there is also some arrangement that “You shall act like this, and he shall act like this.”

Sudama: Some people already believe, “Well, we already have so much water.” Just like when we sweat, there is already water there. There’s no question of drawing it from the… like the trees.

Prabhupada: Why do you draw water? Why you draw water from other source? If you have got water? If you haven’t got water, that’s all right. Is that sufficient?

Sudama: No.

Prabhupada: Then?

Satsvarupa: Their idea of the arrangement is that everything is meant for man, for his exploitation and enjoyment.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Satsvarupa: Everything is meant for man’s, he’s the chief living entity. That’s their understanding of the arrangement. The tree may have to do this, but we can drink it another way.

Bali-mardana: Man uses his intelligence.

Prabhupada: That means there is some superior supervision that “You must do like that. He must do like that.” You call it nature. We accept that. We also say… Bhagavan, Krsna says, prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah: [Bg. 3.27] “Everything is being done by the direction of prakrti, nature.” So nature is superior than you. You have to accept. Because you are being directed by nature.

Bali-mardana: Their hope is that they can become superior to nature.

Prabhupada: That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. There is the foolishness.

prakrteh kriyamanani

gunaih sarvasah


kartaham iti manyate

[Bg. 3.27]

This rascal, is being dictated by nature, but he’s thinking that “I am the Lord.”

Bali-mardana: He wants to be the best.

Prabhupada: Ahankara-vimudhatma. Vimudha, rascaldom, ahankara, by self-conceit. Falsely he’s thinking that “I am doing it.” Or “I shall be able to do it, without.” This is foolishness, this is rascaldom. (japa) Good morning.

Passers-by: Good morning.

Satsvarupa: The scientists can give evidence that so much control has been gained. Now we can fly all over the world…

Prabhupada: Then so much control, that is another thing. But not control. “So much control” means no control. (japa) [break] …admitted that we are controlled by nature. That you cannot refuse. That is foolishness. Now, next, how nature is working? That is also replied in the Bhagavad-gita, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram: [Bg. 9.10] “The material nature is working…” Just like we are also taking the advantage of material nature, ksity-ap-tejah. Here is earth, but we can take this earth and make into brick and make a skyscraper building. So it is not that the earth itself is going to become a skyscraper building. I am living entity; I am utilizing. So nature means these five elements, eight elements. So that has been manipulated by another living entity. Just like the aeroplane is a combination of some matter, but it is being worked out by the manufacturer, by the pilot. Therefore that driver of the aeroplane or the manufacturer of the…, he’s superior. So superior to the material nature is Krsna. This is the conclusion. [break] …our position is that we are being controlled by the material nature, and, and nature, material nature, is controlled by Krsna. So the sense is that one who is at all sensible, that “After all, the controller is Krsna. So why not directly under control of Krsna?” This is Krsna consciousness. Why through the material nature? I have to be controlled. I am being controlled by the material nature; and material nature is being controlled by Krsna. So why not being directly controlled? This is good sense.

Bali-mardana: Krsna is benevolent.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Bali-mardana: Krsna is benevolent, and the material nature is not.

Prabhupada: No, material nature… Just like you don’t care for government. Then you be controlled by the jail superintendent. That’s all. You’ll be controlled. You cannot be free. But if you deny directly the control of the government then you must be controlled by the criminal department, by force. This is your position.

Bali-mardana: Either to be controlled by love or by force.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Bali-mardana: One has a choice to either be controlled by love or by force.

Prabhupada: But love, there is no love when there is force.

Bali-mardana: No, but by Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is love. Just like you are being controlled by me. There is no force. Voluntarily, out of love… I am not paying you. Still, if I say something, immediately you do. Why? There is love. That’s all.

Bali-mardana: One who actually understands the distinction, is it possible that he will still choose to be controlled by the material nature?

Prabhupada: Yes, he has already chosen. But he’s foolish. He does not know. He thinks that “I am now independent of the Supreme Lord.” But because he’s foolish, he cannot understand that you are not independent. You are being controlled by another agent of God. And because, although he’s being controlled, he’s thinking, “I am free,” therefore he’s in illusion. This is called illusion. Illusion means something which is not fact. That is illusion. So this materialist, the so-called scientist, he’s thinking, “There is no God. We are independent.” So many things, like rascal they are thinking. Foolish rascal, childish. And that is illusion. Ahankara-vimudhatma. Therefore this very word is used, vimudhatma: “befooled rascal.” Actually, he’s being controlled by material nature. So how to get out of this material nature? That is explained, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: “As soon as that rascal surrenders unto Me, immediately he’s out of control.” Hare Krsna. How these rascals, scientists, philosophers, politicians can refute this arrangement? Is it possible?

Bali-mardana: Yes, they refuse.

Prabhupada: They refuse. That is…, means rascaldom. They do not actually understand the fact. How they can refuse? Every moment they are controlled by the material nature. Every step.

Bali-mardana: The thing is that they do not realize. They are in illusion. They do not realize…

Prabhupada: That is… That means… Therefore we say they are rascals. They do not realize the fact. Therefore, rascal. Rascal means who do not understand the real fact.

Satsvarupa: They say that we are also under the control of nature?

Prabhupada: What?

Satsvarupa: They don’t see that we, that the devotee is actually free of the material nature.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satsvarupa: They say, well, we also, we have to die, we have to grow old. Just because we’re Hare Krsnas…

Prabhupada: That’s all right. But we admit that. But you don’t admit that. Therefore you are foolish. We admit that “Yes, we are under control.” That is the difference between you and me. But you don’t admit. Therefore you are foolish.

Nitai: Usually, they admit.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Nitai: Usually, they admit that death is certain. But the thing is that they say, what, that you can’t do anything about it.

Prabhupada: That means you are under control. You are not independent.

Satsvarupa: But we say, “Surrender to Krsna and you can become free,” and they say, “No, I don’t see that.”

Prabhupada: Therefore I say that a sensible man is that “I am controlled. I am controlled by some other agent of Krsna. So why not be controlled directly by Krsna.” This is sense. I cannot be independent. Just like the government. If somebody says, “I don’t agree to be controlled by you,” then government will kick with police, with military. That is our position. We are being kicked by the agent of government, material nature. We are desiring in different way to become controller or enjoyer, and we are being offered different facilities, means different types of body, birth and death. So because they have no sense, they have accepted this process. So by the force of nature… “You wanted to desire. You desired this thing. All right, take this body. You wanted to eat without discrimination. All right, take this body of a pig and eat up to stool.” That is nature’s gift. So therefore he’s changing. Ei rupe brahmanda brahmite kono bhagyavan jiva. He’s going on changing, this dress that dress, that dress, that dress, that dress. But he’s not in sense that “How I can stop this change?” That he doesn’t know. Now, as Americans, they have so many nice facilities, but you cannot enjoy them. By nature’s force, you’ll have to change. What you can do? Today you are living on the twenty-fourth floor of this skyscraper, and tomorrow you may become a rat in that room. How you can change it? It is not in your power. The rat is also in the same room and you are also in the same room. Who has made this arrangement?

Nitai: So they say…

Prabhupada: The bug is also there. The mosquito is also there. The leader is also there. So, so many bodies, they are in the same room, but the enjoyment is not the same. Leaser’s enjoyment is not exactly like the occupier of the room.

Nitai: So they say that “Because life is temporary, let’s live it up.”

Prabhupada: Oh, that is foolish, another foolishness. That is… “You are beating me with your shoes. That’s all right, it is temporary. That’s all right. Let me go on suffering this.” So that is foolishness. He does not think that “Why I have been subjected to be beaten by shoes, insult? All right, I do not mind. It is temporary.” That is foolishness.

Nitai: Well, they think that instead of being beaten that they’re having fun, that it’s pleasurable.

Prabhupada: Yes. Unless he’s…

Nitai: They think, “Let us have all the pleasure we can.”

Prabhupada: That is another maya’s illusion. Unless he thinks it is pleasurable, how he can tolerate? Just like the pig, eating stool. Everyone is thinking, “Aoww”, but unless he thinks pleasurable, how he can eat? That is another concession of maya. Praksepatmika, avaranatmika. He’s covered by illusion. He is accepting the most abominable thing, but he’s thinking, “I’m enjoying.” This is called maya.

Nitai: Sometimes we tell them that this life is only full of miseries, and they say, “What do you mean?”

Prabhupada: No, that is their foolishness. That is their foolishness. They do not know, they do not distinguish what is misery and what is happiness. They have no sense, no brain. That is their foolishness.

Nitai: So we can convince them by pointing out…?

Prabhupada: They cannot convince them because they are so rascal, so foolish, that they have no brain to understand what is the distinction. They have no brain. Just like cats and dogs. That is their fallen condition. Yes.

Sudama: They believe that this misery is good.

Prabhupada: Yes, that I have explained. Unless they believe it is good, how they can be put in to miserable condition? Just like some of the thieves. They go to jail. They think, “It is very nice. We haven’t got to earn. We are getting food here, free of charge. Yes, it is very nice place. It is my father-in-law’s house.” (laughs) So unless they believe, how they can tolerate such tribulations? The worm in the stool, he believes, “This is enjoyment.” You take it from the stool, put it here, no, it will go again. It thinks it is pleasurable. That is their position. Therefore they have been described as mudha. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. When they believe it, “Oh, it is not good,” that is their good fortune. Then they are fortunate. That is explained by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, ei rupe brahmanda brahmite kono bhagyavan jiva. When they come to that fortunate position, that is first-class.

Nitai: How does one become “bhagyavan”?

Prabhupada: Bhagyavan, opulent… If you earn money, you become bhagyavan. Bhagyavan means… The word has come from bhagavan, and bhaga means opulence, six kinds of opulence: riches… Aisvaryasya samagrasya viryasya yasasah sriyah (Visnu Purana 6.5.47). So one who possess all these things not exactly like Bhagavan, but partially, according to his position, he’s called bhagyavan.

Nitai: But in this verse that you just quoted, ei rupe brahmanda brahmite kono bhagyavan, how does one come, become to the stage of…

Prabhupada: We are making them bhagyavan. We are giving them service, how to become bhagyavan. We are spending our blood, gallons of blood, to make them bhagyavan. This is the sacrifice of the devotees. Just like you are poor. Somebody, rich man, comes, “All right, take one million dollars from me.” You get immediately rich. So it is the devotees’ sacrifice that they’re becoming… Just like Vasudeva Datta. He requested Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “My Lord, you have come. Take away all these people, unfortunate people, back to home, back to Godhead. If You think they are so inglorious, they cannot be taken, then give me all their sins to me. I shall suffer. You take them.” That is Vaisnava. They are sacrificing everything for these unfortunate rascals. Therefore they are becoming very, very dear to Krsna. Krsna says, na ca tasman manusyesu [Bg. 18.69]. Those who are sacrificing everything for giving, making fortunate these rascals, they become immediately very, very dear to Krsna. Just like, if a rich man gives his money for public welfare, immediately he’s recognized by the government, “Yes.” He’s given some title. Why? Because he has given his possession for the benefit of the public. Similarly, the devotees, they are distributing their possessions to these unfortunate people. Therefore he’s immediately recognized. That is the process. But devotee does not want any recognition, but he knows that “My Lord wants this rascal to go back to home, back to Godhead. So let me try my best.” He knows the mind of the master; otherwise, why the master comes and canvasses, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]? He has no business, but He wants that “These rascals are suffering in this material condition. They are My part and parcel, My sons. Let Me try.” And devotee understands that “My Lord wants it. So let me do it on His behalf.” Therefore devotee is so dear. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna… (end)