Prajapati:The theological rascals, though, they will not accept any authority except their own mind. They are such nonsense.

Prabhupada: That is called mano-dharmi. In Sanskrit it is called mano-dharmi, mental speculators.

Prajapati: It’s a disease, actually.

Prabhupada: And therefore, mental speculators, they have been condemned. Manorathenasati dhavato bahih [SB 5.18.12]. Because they carry on, or they are carried by the chariot of mind, manorathena. Manorathena asati. Manoratha, when you drive on the chariot of mind, you cannot get any fixed idea. Because mind is flickering. Sankalpa-vikalpa. Mind’s business is “Accept this, and again reject it.” So all these speculators are doing. Somebody is putting forward some theory, and after some years he will himself reject or somebody else will reject. So manorathena, by mental speculation, you remain on the material platform. You cannot get any spiritual idea. Therefore harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. Anyone who is not in the spiritual platform… Spiritual platform means to be a devotee of the Lord. The Mayavadis, because they are not devotees of the Lord, they are not on the spiritual platform. They are on the material platform. They are speculating, spirit — “something negation of matter.” That’s all. That is mental speculation. It is bad. “Good means negation of bad.” They are thinking like that. They do not know, in this material world, bad and good are both the same thing. Because it is matter. That they do not know. They think, “This is bad, this is good.” But they do not know, materially conceived anything, good or bad, they are the same thing. That they do not know.

dvaite bhadrabhadra-jnana, saba — manodharma

ei bhala, ei manda — ei saba bhrama

Dvaite means this external energy of Krsna. There everything is infected.

Bahulasva: How is bad and good the same thing, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Just like we are walking on this street. Sometimes we say, “This is very good.” And sometimes, “It is very bad.” But the street is the same. So how it is good and bad? This is simply mental speculation.

Bahulasva: Sense perception?

Prabhupada: Eh? Mental speculation. When it is dry… So dryness also, sometimes it is, “Oh, it is very dry, bad.” And again, say dry, we shall say, “Oh, today is very good.” It is simply mental speculation.

Devotee: It is like wet stool and dry stool. It is still stool.

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. (Chuckles) Yes, that is the example. The dry part of the stool, they say, “Oh, this part is very nice.” He forgets that, after all, it is stool. So what is the dry or moist? Just like they are making scientific advancement. But the death is there. So what is the use of your advancement or no advancement? One who has not advanced in science, he’ll also die. And you’ll also die, advanced. Then what is the good? You cannot protect yourself from death. Then what is the meaning of this “good”? “This is good. This is advancement, and this is not advancement.”

Svarupa Damodara: But the distinction, the good and bad…

Prabhupada: That is your distinction. You have made such distinction.

Svarupa Damodara: I think that depends on the consciousness of the individual.

Prabhupada: Relativity, relativity, law of Relativity. What is, what is food for one is death for other, the same thing. So how you can say the food is good or bad? Is it not? “One man’s food, another man’s poison.” So how you can distinguish this is food or poison? One man will say, “No, it is food.” Another man will say, “It is poison.” So how you’ll distinguish? So this good and bad is simply mental speculation. Because it is in the material platform, there is nothing good. Everything is bad. Otherwise why Krsna said, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. In the name of “dharma,” so many rascaldom is going on. Therefore Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya. It is not dharma. And Bhagavata says, dharmah projjhita-kaitavo ‘tra: [SB 1.1.2] “This cheating type of religious system is rejected from Srimad-Bhagavatam.” All so-called religions, they’re simply cheating. Cheating. Dharmah projjhita-kaitavah. Kaitavah means cheating. Everything is cheating. They say, “We are advancing.” What you are advancing? The problem, birth-death, is there. So what is the meaning of your advancement? Dharmah projjhita-kaitavo ‘tra paramo nirmatsaranam [SB 1.1.2].

Prajapati: This is the only means, then, to get off that manorathena.

Prabhupada: Manorathena, yes. Manorathena means if you remain on that platform, then you have to reject again. Just they are doing, the so-called scientists, philosophers. They are putting forward some theory, and after some time they reject it. So if you remain on the mental platform, then this business of accepting and rejecting will go on. You’ll never come to a conclusion. Therefore one has to rise to the spiritual platform. That is nityah sasvato ‘yam, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. That is eternal, everlasting.

Prajapati: Not a theory.

Prabhupada: No. Yes.

Umapati: They just constantly speculate on the material nature.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Umapati: They speculate on the material nature.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Umapati: And they can never be spiritual.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Umapati: Just always material.

Prabhupada: Number of zeroes never make one. It is zero. You add thousands of zeroes, one after another, the value will be zero. Not one.

Svarupa Damodara: But there is a theory, Srila Prabhupada… Not theory. It’s a fact, that if some number is raised to the power zero, that becomes one. In mathematics.

Prabhupada: That’s all right. But I am speaking that you combine millions of zeroes. That will never become one. That I am speaking. Zero is zero. Zero plus zero equal to zero. Zero minus zero equal to zero. Zero multiplied zero, zero. Zero divided by zero, zero. That’s all. Where you get…? And by the side of zero, if you bring one, eko brahma, immediately it will become ten. And add another zero, immediately hundred, ten times increased. That one must be there, one God. Then zero increases value. Similarly, this material world is zero, but if there is Krsna consciousness, then it is valuable. Then it is valuable.

Prajapati: But that manorathena, the chariot of the mind, that is never valuable.

Prabhupada: No, it has no value.

Prajapati: The whole western…

Prabhupada: Manorathena asati dhavato bahih. By mental speculation, you will remain on this asati, in this temporary field. Asat means “which will not exist.” Anything in this material world, you take, that will not exist. Anywhere man can say. The skyscraper building is constructed, but everyone knows that it will not exist. Some day it will fall down. Everyone knows. It will never exist. That is explained by Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita, that “If you think that by combination of matter, life has come, so life was not there before the combination. And this combination will dismantle. So life, there will be no more life. So why these three period you are lamenting? There is life.” Because according to this theory — “The combination of matter makes life” — so before combination there was no life, and the combination dismantled, there is no life. So beginning and end no life. Why you are lamenting in the middle? Very good reasoning. Just see. Therefore Prahlada Maharaja says, maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan [SB 7.9.43]. Maya-sukhaya, that illusory, illusory happiness. Maya-sukhaya. And for that reason, they are making huge, gorgeous arrangement and working day and night, which will be zero. It has begun from zero and it will end into zero. In the middle they are busy. Just see. Therefore vimudhan.

Hanuman: In your books you say that the world is like a dream.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is dream.

Hanuman: How is it a dream?

Prabhupada: Dream, just like last night you had some dream.

Hanuman: Yes.

Prabhupada: Well, it has no value. It is gone. And again, this night, when you’ll sleep, you’ll forget all these things. You’ll dream. You don’t remember during night, when you are dreaming, that “I have got my house, I have got my wife I have…” You all forget. So it is dream.

Hanuman: It is true or is not true?

Prabhupada: No, no. Where is true? You forget at night. Do you remember when you sleep that you have got your wife and you are sleeping on bed? You have gone some three thousand miles away and seeing something else. Do you remember that you have got a place to reside?

Hanuman: No.

Prabhupada: So this is dream at night. And night dream, what you saw at night, that is now dream. So both of them dream. You are simply visitor. That’s all. You are seeing this dream and that dream. You are, you are fact, but what you are seeing, that is dream.

Hanuman: But I have the impression that “This is true, and my dream is not true.” What is the dif…?

Prabhupada: No, no. Everything is untrue. How it is true? If it is true, why you forget at night? Why you forget? If it is true. Do you remember at night?

Hanuman: No, I don’t remember.

Prabhupada: Then? How it is true? As you don’t remember the dreams which you saw last night…, That, therefore we say “dream.” Similarly this thing, because you forget at night, this is also dream.

Hanuman: But I have…

Prabhupada: This is day-dream, that is night-dream. That’s all.

Bahulasva: Jaya. Day-dream and night-dream. And the night-dream, then you perceive that as being real.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Bahulasva: When you dream at night, then you think that is real.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is real. You cry… It is dream, but you are crying, “There is tiger, tiger, tiger!” Where is tiger? But you are seeing it is fact, tiger. “I am being killed by a tiger.” But where is tiger. [break] …in dream you are embracing some beautiful girl. Where is that beautiful girl? But actually this is happening.

Hanuman: Is it happening?

Prabhupada: It is happening because there is discharge of semina, night pollution. But where is that girl? Is it not dream? So similarly this is also dream. You are having the effect of truthfulness, but it is a dream. Maya… Therefore it is called maya-sukhaya. The same thing, that at night you are dreaming you are embracing nice beautiful girl, as there is no such thing, similarly, in the daytime also, whatever advancement you are making, this is also like that. Maya-sukhaya. We are happy, we are dreaming, “This process will make me happy. This process will make me happy.” But the whole process is dream only. You are taking this day-dream as reality because the duration is long. At night, when you dream, the duration is for half an hour. And this is for twelve hours, or more than that. That is the difference. It is a twelve hours’ dream, and that is half an hour dream. But actually, both of them are dream. And because it is twelve hours’ dream, you are taking it as, accepting it as real. That is called illusion.

Bahulasva: Illusion.

Prabhupada: Yes. We are making distinction between animal and ourself, but we’re forgetting, we are forgetting, the animal also will die and I will also die. So where is my advancement? Will you remain? You’ll also die. So where is your advancement upon animals? That is stated in sastra: ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam ca samanam etat pasubhir naranam. Business — eating, sleeping, sex-life and defending — this is also animal’s business. And you are also doing the same. How you are distinct from animal? You’ll die. The animal will die. But if you say, “I’ll die after one hundred years, and this ant will die after one hour,” that does not mean that you are in reality. It is a question of time. Just like this huge universe. It will be all be destroyed. As your body will be destroyed, this will be destroyed, annihilation, dissolution. Nature’s way, everything will be dissolved. So therefore it is dream. It is a long duration dream. That’s all. Nothing else. But the advantage is that even in this dream you can realize the reality, God. That is the… So if you don’t take advantage of this dream, then you are missing.

Hanuman: So I am half asleep.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is the… Therefore Vedas says, uttisthata. “Get up, get up, get up!” Jagrta. “Become awakened.” Prapya varam nibodhata. “Now you have got the opportunity. Utilize it.” This is Vedic injunction. Uttisthata jagrta prapya varam nibodhata. This is Vedic in… Tamasi ma jyotir gama. These are Vedic injunctions. So we are preaching the same thing, that “Reality is here, Krsna. Don’t remain in this darkness. Come to this consciousness.” That is our preaching. Tamasi ma jyotir gama. [break] …experienced the sunshine, bright day, and this gloomy day. So when you are in darkness, we must have to admit, “There is light.” Because darkness means absence of light. So as we are in the darkness of this material existence, there must be something life of light. That is spiritual world. That is reality. [break] …aham brahmasmi. “Oh, I don’t belong to this darkness, darkness atmosphere. I belong to the light atmosphere.” That is self-realization. Aham brahmasmi.

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

[Bg. 18.54]

This is brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20] stage. Just like this is a cakra. I am walking on this wheel. But I am thinking I am advancing. What is this advancement? It is already there. Just like they are advancing in science and they must remain here. They are trying for so many years to go to the Moon planet, and no result. (laughs) The same, same thing. “Now we are going to the moon planet.” But coming again. That’s all. So samsara-cakra. Just like the dog. Dog is sometimes barking: “Gata-gata-gata-gata!” The master says, “Come on.” Immediately come. He thinks that “I have got freedom. Let me jump over.” You see. So we are thinking like that. We are under the maya’s clutches. “Come on, come on here.” Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. He’s under the reins of prakrti. He cannot go anywhere. (pause) [break]

Hanuman: …simultaneously in the dream and not in the dream. So when…

Prabhupada: That is reality, when you are chanting Hare Krsna. That is reality.

Hanuman: But I also see all this.

Prabhupada: Eh? That is another thing. On the path of reality, you come.

Hanuman: On the path?

Prabhupada: Yes. It is a process. When the process is complete, then you’ll come to the reality. But that is the process. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. We cannot distinguish now reality and non-reality because the heart is unclean. So we have to cleanse, and then we come to the reality.

Svarupa Damodara: For that matter, Srila Prabhupada, when one comes to that stage, there is no difference between animate and inanimate. Is that true?

Prabhupada: Highest stage?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Highest stage, everything animate.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. So a stone… Even a stone has soul.

Prabhupada: Oh yes, yes. Just like this tree. You cut; it does not protest. The consciousness is not developed. That is the… But it has got life. You scientists, you do not believe that stone has also life?

Svarupa Damodara: No, they say it’s just matter.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: They say there’s no life there.

Prabhupada: No, there is life.

Nitai: Every stone has life?

Prabhupada: Yes. No, dead stone has no… But there are many mountains, they are increasing. You know, at Benares there is a stone? Tila-bandhesvara. (?)

Svarupa Damodara: I don’t know.

Prabhupada: Yes. That increases. If you go, see today, and go ten years after, you’ll see — take the measurement — it has increased. They’ll go…

Svarupa Damodara: But they will say that because of the position of the dust particles the size will increase. Even a small…

Prabhupada: No, no, no. It is clean. There is no… It is being washed even. Its name is Tila-bandhesvara. (?) So there is no uncleanliness. Still, the body increases. There is still Tila-bandhesvara. (?) There is temple of Tila-bandhesvara. People go to see.

Svarupa Damodara: But the consciousness is covered there.

Prabhupada: Covered, yes. Dullness means consciousness is covered. You put a child in open air. He’ll not feel much cold. You see practically. He’ll not feel. Because consciousness is not developed. Animal, they will not feel cold. But we feel.

Bahulasva: But Prabhupada, there are still such things as dead matter?

Prabhupada: Not dead matter. The soul is there.

Bahulasva: Suppose something, well, something like this shoe that I’m wearing…,

Prabhupada: It is now dead matter. But when you go, the higher understanding, it is a composition of atoms. So we learn from Vedic sastra that within the atom there is life. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami [Bs. 5.35]. There is, there. If within the atom there is life, then what to speak of anything else.

Bahulasva: That’s a jivatma?

Prabhupada: No, no. Govinda is there.

Bahulasva: Krsna.

Prabhupada: When Krsna is there, then Krsna is there with everything. Krsna cannot be alone.

Bahulasva: This is the real science, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vijnana. Yad vijnana-samanvitam. Jnanam parama-guhyam me yad vijnana-samanvitam. Is it not? Jnanam me… “My knowledge is very confidential and it is full of science.” Jnanam parama-guhyam me yad vijnana-samanvitam. And in the Bhagavad-gita there is said, “Knowing this knowledge…” Yaj jnatva neha bhuyo ‘nyaj jnatavyam avasisyate. In the Vedas it is said, kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. So this is the way. Try to understand Krsna and everything will be known. [break] …guhyam pavitram paramam idam. Eh? Bhagavad-gita. Raja-vidya, the knowledge, the king of knowledge. [break]

Hanuman: Without your mercy, there’s no way out of the dream of material life.

Prabhupada: Krsna’s. Krsna’s mercy. Yes. (pause) [break]

Svarupa Damodara: …water is tasteless, but Krsna says, “I am the taste in water.” Science says water is tasteless, no taste in water.

Prabhupada: Science says.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: But have you tasted that tasteless water? (laughter)

Gurukrpa: If it is so tasteless, why is it quenching?

Karandhara: If someone gives you a glass of water and you drink it, you immediately know what it is.

Svarupa Damodara: They’ll say the taste of water depends on the amount of chemicals contained in the water.

Prabhupada: That’s all right. So that is Krsna. That is Krsna. The tastefulness. Tastefulness of water is Krsna. Not the water.

Bahulasva: People have such a clouded idea of what is God, Srila Prabhupada. When you explain it, it’s very real.

Gurukrpa: Prabhupada, the other day you mentioned that during the eating activities, during sex activity, there is increase of breathing.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Gurukrpa: Now, when we do the kirtana, there is much increase of breathing. So what is the difference?

Prabhupada: The difference is that… [Break] …why your child is less conscious than yourself?

Gurukrpa: Because he’s not developed.

Prabhupada: He’s also living entity. Why he’s foolish, and why you are intelligent? What is the answer?

Gurukrpa: Because the consciousness is more developed.

Prabhupada: Then develop… So you develop your consciousness. Then you will understand Krsna.

Gurukrpa: So I must be more fortunate than the other living entities in my body.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Gurukrpa: The other living entities.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore it is called, human life is so valuable. You are not cats and dogs. You have got the opportunity to understand God, Krsna.

Devotee: Only by your mercy, Srila Prabhupada. (end)