Prabhupada: Why the law of gravitation is violated?
Svarupa Damodara: They say the cells are alive when the…
Prabhupada: They say. They have got this cell theory. Therefore under condition, this law of gravitation works. It is not unconditional. Then the question is who will make the condition?
Karandhara: Well, they say that the green apple’s not falling is just a case of an opposite factor being stronger than the pull of gravity. The strength of the twig holding the apple on is stronger than the pull of gravity.
Prabhupada: That I say, that the law of gravitation acts under certain conditions. This is also conditional.
Karandhara: Well, the law of gravitation is always working, the energy is always there. It is just not strong enough to pull the apple down.
Prabhupada: Working under condition. Working under condition. Just like you take a little needle, it will go immediately down the water, and you give a big log, it will not go. The weight of the needle and the weight of the big log, much different. Still, the needle will go; the gravitation will work. But to the log it will not work.
Karandhara: Well, there is a counter-law called buoyancy.
Prabhupada: So anyway, there are so many laws. If the laws are fulfilled, then your so-called gravitation works. So who made the laws? That is the point. Under certain law, condition, it will not act, and under certain condition it will act. So who made the condition? That is the question. You cannot make finalize the laws of gravitation. It is also under condition. Who makes this condition? That is the point. [break] …Lord Ramacandra constructed the bridge with stone on the ocean, it began to float. So He is the condition-maker. He made the condition. He changed the condition, “Now these stones will float.” That’s all. Therefore God is supreme. [break] Law of gravitation did not work when Krsna lifted the Govardhana Hill. [break] So that is nice. The scientific discoveries act under relative condition. That is not absolute, final. If such and such conditions are there, then the so-called scientific laws will act. Otherwise it will not act. [break] …see. But you cannot see even so many things. Now you cannot see there, what is there. So what is that seeing power?
Svarupa Damodara: It’s limited.
Prabhupada: Therefore everything is limited. Under condition you can see. So what is your seeing? Imperfect seeing. If the sun rises, then you can see. That also not correctly. So what is the value of your seeing. You say, “We want to see God.” And what is the value of your seeing?
Karandhara: Well, they think they can make machines.
Prabhupada: That is also imperfect.
Karandhara: They have one machine they have they could see right now… Infrared telescopes.
Prabhupada: No, that machine is imperfect. That is also imperfect. That machine is made by imperfect senses; so it is imperfect.
Karandhara: Imperfect, but they think it is becoming more perfect.
Prabhupada: That is imperfect. They are becoming more perfect means they are imperfect. Becoming more perfect means their always position is imperfect. That very word means that, that you are perpetually imperfect. [break]
Svarupa Damodara: It is better than doing something than doing nothing.
Prabhupada: Yes. That dog also doing, jumping, always. “Yes, we get… Bow! Bow! Bow! Ra, ra, ra, ra!” That kind of… Active business. What is called? Active foolishness. They remain foolish, but still, they are active. That means they are simply creating dangerous position. That’s all. Jagatah ahitah. It is said in the Bhagavad-gita. These demons, their progress means only for the mischief of the world. That’s all. That is demonic progress. Ksayaya jagato… For the destruction of the world and for mischievous condition of the world, their progress. Is it not? Ksayaya jagatah ahitah. Ksayaya means “for destruction and for mischievous condition.” Therefore, despite all advancement of so-called scientific knowledge, the world becoming more and more in dangerous and destructive condition. [break]
Svarupa Damodara: …gives the medicine. [break]
Prajapati: Today the only time they use the word God is when they are swearing and they are calling on God to damn someone else. Why is such language there? Why are they doing like that?
Prabhupada: No. Why ordinary men? Even those who are going to church, they are also praying God, “God, give us our daily bread.” These rascals, they have made God as agent for their sense gratification. This is their philosophy. Even from the priest down to the rogues, they have made God as the agent of their sense gratification. That is materialism.” God must supply whatever I want. That is God. Otherwise I don’t care for God.” This is their philosophy.
Prajapati: But sometimes they might hit their thumb with a hammer or something and they will start swearing, calling on God’s name, but in a very bad way.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. God’s name. God’s… In every respect, these materialists, they want to use God for their sense gratification. That is the prime fact. Our philosophy is that “God is not agent for your sense gratification, but you are agent for God’s satisfaction.” That is our philosophy, just the opposite. Even so-called religionists, they also take God as the agent of their sense gratification. They go to church to order God, “Supply our bread.” Actually, He is doing. God is supplying bread. But they go for ordering, that “Give us our…” The rascal does not know, God is already supplying. Why should we go to church for ordering Him to supply bread? He is already supplying, even to the cats and dogs. They do not now what is the purpose of going to the church. That is going on. That is the disease, material disease. “I want to satisfy my senses, and anyone who will help me in my sense gratification, I shall worship him. If he does not, then I shall not.” Everywhere. This Nixon became president because he promised that “I shall satisfy your senses.” Now he is not doing so, so “Get out.” This is the whole formula, material world.” You satisfy my senses, you are my friend. And as soon as stop, then you are not my friend.” That’s it. [break] …are considered the most authoritative because they give sense gratification. “You are sick. Now you are unable to gratify your senses. I give you some medicine so you become strong and go on your sense gratification.” Therefore doctor is very good man.
Svarupa Damodara: Even I wanted to become a doctor. When I started…
Prabhupada: Oh, whatever you want to become, the basic principle is sense gratification. Either you become scientist or doctor or engineer, the main thing is “Bring money.” That’s all.
Svarupa Damodara: Some doctors think that they are doing humanitarian work.
Prabhupada: Yes, so long he will pay. That’s all. “Hospital.” In your country especially. “Hospital” means “to receive.” But there also you pay, then it is hospital. Otherwise “Get out.” It is no longer hospital.
Svarupa Damodara: I find doctors are most rascals here. They are greatest demons.
Prabhupada: Why not the scientists?
Svarupa Damodara: I think scientists are better than doctors.
Prabhupada: Better rascals. (laughter) Scientists are better rascals. (laughing)
Karandhara: Well, doctors are simply out for money.
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, it is terrible. They don’t think about anything else. They just think about money.
Prabhupada: They have been taught like that.
Svarupa Damodara: If the patient doesn’t bring money, he won’t give injection.
Prabhupada: So the lawyers and everyone. Especially in your country, this country, because they require money, so they must have money some way or other. That is the prime principle. They require money. That’s all.
Karandhara: They charge outrageous fees, $60 an hour, $70 an hour, $5,000 for a little operation. Some doctors, they simply try to make operations so they can get rich. Whenever you come to see them, they say, “You need an operation.”
Locana: And they keep their telephone numbers secret so that on Sunday their patients may not disturb their sense gratification with their medical difficulties.
Svarupa Damodara: It is a very big business here, Srila Prabhupada, medical profession. They have this American Medical Association. They control the whole business. Even government cannot interfere. So they choose students, and they keep the supply so low that the demand is always high. That is why the price always increases. It’s terrible.
Karandhara: To stay in a hospital now costs about $150 a day.
Prabhupada: That is a sort of punishment of sinful activities. When you fall sick, it is due to sinful activity. So you are punished.
Karandhara: It’s a very high price.
Rupanuga: Pay fine.
Prabhupada: Yes. The more dangerous is the disease, you have to pay more. [break]
Karandhara: …very mercenary, hospitals…
Prabhupada: Everywhere mercenary. Lawyers…
Karandhara: The hospital across the street from our temple, if you go there with an emergency, they say, “First give us money. No money, go away.” No matter how serious the injury. “First give us money.”
Svarupa Damodara: They have no human quality, these doctors.
Karandhara: We have brought devotees there sometimes with serious wounds or injuries, and they just say, “First you give us money or else go away. We don’t care.”
Prabhupada: Everywhere. [break]
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, I think the Indian government has set up one oil factory now. I saw in the news, that in Mathura now, the government of India has set up one oil refinery. There will be a factory there.
Prabhupada: In Mathura?
Svarupa Damodara: In Mathura, yes. They have laid the foundation, Indira Gandhi. I think a few months ago I saw in the paper. So there will be one refinery there. So it will be industrial town now.
Prabhupada: Yes. They want to spoil the spiritual value of Mathura, Vrndavana. They are not giving any more sanction for temples. [break]
Svarupa Damodara: Yesterday Rupanuga Maharaja was telling me that about the calculation of time through the atom.
Rupanuga: Calculation of time from the atom, Srila Prabhupada. He is talking about Bhagavatam. By the light passing over the atom, you can calculate the time, the sunlight passing over the atomic particles.
Svarupa Damodara: How is it done?
Prabhupada: I have written that?
Rupanuga: Yes, you have written, Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Rupanuga: Third Canto. How the sunlight, you can tell time, that the atom is a subtle form of time, that you can tell time as light passes over the surface of an atom. And the experiment is that you look for atoms in a screen. When the sun comes through the screen, you can see in the sunlight hexatoms or six atoms with your naked eye. That experiment is given in Bhagavatam. It is very wonderful. Vedic science. We should present that as the real actual science, real atomic science.
Prabhupada: No, in Bhagavatam there is regular calculation, what is the distance from one planet to another. Everything is there.
Svarupa Damodara: The calculation is given.
Prabhupada: Yes. Every planet is described, what is the constitution, what are the forms of the living entities there. Everything is there. Bhagavata never says that “These, all the other planets are vacant. Only this planet is full of living entities.” Bhagavata is not so rascal. These rascals may say. Their theory is that “All other planets, they are vacant. Only this planet is filled with…” This rascal theory is not in the Bhagavata. We see that there is living entity in the water. There is living entity within the sand. How you can say there is no living entity in other planets?
Rupanuga: They say that “Life as we know it here does not exist.” Human life.
Prabhupada: No, how you can say so? The condition is the same. Every planet is made of earth, water, air, fire, the five elements. So if under these condition there are living entities in this planet, why not in that condition living entities in other planets? That is their ignorance. That is their bluff. The different condition of the planets is that some planet is fiery, some planet is gaseous, some planet is watery. That may be, but after all, they are made of these five elements. And each element, we find there is living entity. So it may be mixture or pure, there must be living entities. And in Bhagavad-gita it is said sarva-ga. Even in the fire there is living entities. And why not? If living entities can stay in water, why not in fire?
Rupanuga: On the sun planet.
Prabhupada: Oh yes. There are also living entities. They are very glowing, fiery. Therefore the whole sun planet is glowing.
Rupanuga: By their bodily light.
Prabhupada: Yes. Here is only one sun planet, and in Vaikuntha all the planets are like sun. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah [Bg. 15.6]. There is no necessity of electricity or moonlight or sunlight. Here it is necessity because here only glowing planet is the sun. But in the Vaikuntha, each and every planet is glowing. Therefore there is no need of sun. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Na tad bhasayate suryah. There is no necessity of illumination of sun, moon or electricity.
Prajapati: Spirit soul, it is also luminous like that?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] …is luminous, how it is keeping your body warm? As soon as it goes away, immediately cold. Immediately cold. Finished, all temperature finished. These are the evidences.
Rupanuga: It is said that the soul glows with a light brighter than a thousand suns. In the Vedas. Yes?
Prabhupada: I do not remember. Maybe. [break] The soul is more valuable than the sun, because the sun is, after all, a matter, and the soul is spirit. Therefore the vast difference of value. You cannot revive the life of a dead body by thousands of suns’ heat. It is not possible. It can burn, but it cannot give light.
Svarupa Damodara: Just like if we compare the velocity of light and the velocity of soul, it is…
Prabhupada: Far, far greater.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, far different. It can be immediately on the…
Prabhupada: Just like Krsna says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9], “Immediately comes to Me.” So just see the velocity. Tyaktva deham. As soon as he gives up this body, immediately goes to Krsna. So see… Where is Krsna? You cannot estimate even this material world. And then you enter the spiritual world. And then you go to the highest planet of the spiritual world, Goloka Vrndavana. So you cannot calculate how far it is, neither by driving your aeroplane of mind and vayu, you can reach there. But the soul is so powerful that immediately goes there. Just like mind. You are here, many thousand miles away, 25,000 miles away in somewhere, immediately goes, mind goes.
Svarupa Damodara: Just at will.
Prabhupada: At will. So the soul is still finer. Intelligence is finer than the mind. And soul is finer than the intelligence. So just imagine what is the velocity. Soul is so powerful. By yogi, simply giving up this material body, they can capture the sun rays and immediately go to the sun planet. Beams of the sun. This is science. Where is that science?
Prajapati: Srila Prabhupada, are thoughts made of matter or spirit?
Prabhupada: Yes. Thoughts actually made by spirit, but it is covered by matter. Therefore in the material condition you can think only of matter. Just like this body is covered by so many material things, but actually, the spirit is covered. So the soul being spirit, so long it is covered by matter, it cannot act spiritually. It is obstructed. Not obstructed. Covered. It cannot be obstructed. If you like, you can get out of the covering of the matter. So matter cannot obstruct. But it is the will of the soul. Therefore it is called tatastha, marginal.
Prajapati: When we feel pain or discomfort, that is covering also?
Prabhupada: That is to the material. Soul has no pain. It is the material covering. Just like this chilliness. We are affected by the body, material body, not the soul. Matra-sparsas tu kaunteya sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah [Bg. 2.14]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. This pleasure and pain is due to the material covering. Otherwise soul is unaffected. Asango ‘yam purusah: “This purusa, the soul, is unaffected by any material condition.” The same example as I give, that you have a good car. You are identifying yourself. But you are not the car. You are affected if the car is smashed, because you have got absorption in the car that “This is my car.” The other man is not affected. Similarly, due to our absorption, aham mameti [SB 5.5.8], “It is my, it is mine,” we are suffering.
Rupanuga: The False ego.
Prabhupada: False ego.
Rupanuga: Very subtle.
Rupanuga: This process of identification with the body. So we identify with the body…
Prabhupada: Aham mameti janasya moho ‘yam [SB 5.5.8]. This is illusion. He is not that, but he is thinking, “I am this.” That is animalism. The animal is always thinking that “I am this body.”
Giriraja: So if somebody no longer identifies with the body, what is his perception of a painful condition?
Prabhupada: He tolerates. He knows. Just like the same example. You are not the car . If your car is smashed, although you feel sorry, but you know that “I am not a car.” That is the position.
Rupanuga: So the pain is experienced by the consciousness that is spread all over the body?
Prabhupada: That is false. That is called illusion. You are not painful, but you are thinking that “I am painful.” But that is illusion.
Svarupa Damodara: But we are conditioned.
Svarupa Damodara: That is why we experience from very, our childhood that I feel pain when somebody hits me.
Prabhupada: No. Just like we all know that “I am not this body.” But why you are covering the body? So long you are in material condition, you have to do that. The same example. Although you are not the motorcar, but if there is some accident, you have to take care of it, because you have to work on it. Therefore this body, although I am not this body, I have to work in this material world with this body. That is the vehicle. You cannot neglect it, neither you become identified. This is knowledge. Yuktahara-viharas ca. That is recommended, yuktahara, “as much as necessity.” But these people, they are taking the body as everything. They have no information of the soul.
Rupanuga: They cannot tolerate it. Like the prisoner cannot tolerate being in the prison house without knowledge. They cannot get along.
Svarupa Damodara: So our consciousness is affected by our conditioning.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore Krsna consciousness is the perfect consciousness.
Svarupa Damodara: Just like the yogis. They live in the Himalayas without any cloth. They take bath in ice water. They don’t feel anything.
Prajapati: But is it true, Srila Prabhupada, that sometimes the spiritual master has to suffer if his disciples act in sinful ways?
Prabhupada: The same way. Bodily suffering. Infection. The spiritual master accepts the all infection. So as the infection acts on the body, so there is little suffering. Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg. 18.66]. Krsna says, “All the sinful reaction of the surrendered soul…” So spiritual master is the representative of Krsna. So he has also to accept. [break] …the injunction is one should not accept many disciples. But for preaching work we have to do that. [break]
Svarupa Damodara: …to finish my thesis, so I won’t be able to come every day in the morning.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. You do your duty. [break]
Prajapati: Srila Prabhupada, I’m so sorry that you have to suffer cause we’re such rascals.
Prabhupada: No, no. I’ll not suffer.
Karandhara: Then don’t be rascals.
Prajapati: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada.
Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupada. [break] (in the car:)
Rupanuga: :…comes in contact with the so-called matter, is that false ego?
Prabhupada: No, consciousness is spread all over the body. And due to the false ego… [break]
Rupanuga: How big is the material atom?
Prabhupada: There is measurement.
Rupanuga: Oh, in Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: But it is said that unless six atoms are joined together, you cannot see. (end)