Prabhupada: Vijnana. Jnana-vijnana. [break] …not this science, experimental. That is not science. Vedic knowledge is science.
Pusta Krsna: So there is no experimental science in Vedic culture.
Prabhupada: Experimental science is condemned. What you will make, ex… You are imperfect. What is the value of your experiment? Therefore it is rejected. Whatever you’ll do, that is imperfect. First of all you become perfect; then you make experiment. But you are… You remain imperfect, and you making experiment. What is the value of it? [break] …is no experimental knowledge. All established truth. That is vijnana, or science.
Pusta Krsna: Established truth.
Prabhupada: Yes. The sun rises on the eastern side; that is established truth. You cannot change it. And that is vijnana. Man dies. This is established truth. You cannot make any change by experimental knowledge. This is vijnana. Nrpa nirnita: “It is already settled.” In the Vedic knowledge there is no such thing as laboratory or experiment, discovery, nothing.
Pusta Krsna: People blindly would accept that cow dung was purified without having to test it.
Prabhupada: Yes. But you make experiment; you will find it all right. So we save time. [break] …no experiment. [break] …experiment has become successful? Hm?
Pusta Krsna: Well, they’ve cured certain diseases by experimentation.
Prabhupada: That is success? You stop disease. What is this, “cure disease”? Malaria, if it is not here, it is somewhere there. And if I am not suffering from malaria, I am suffering from syphilis. So what is this cure, experiment? Disease must be there. So you stop it. Then it is success.
Pusta Krsna: So it is not possible to stop disease.
Prabhupada: No. How it is possible?
Pusta Krsna: Is it worthwhile to try to prolong life?
Prabhupada: It is also condemned. Prolonged life… Suppose you live hundred years and a tree lives five thousand years, ten thousand years. Then what is the use of prolonging life, life like this? Is that very good life?
Pusta Krsna: No.
Prabhupada: Standing in one place for ten thousand years? Why should you prolong your life? For suffering? You are suffering, that is your problem, so what is the use of prolonging your life? This is foolishness. What do you gain by prolonging life if you are suffering? Stop suffering. That is wanted. How you can stop suffering? With suffering, prolonging life, what is the benefit?
Pusta Krsna: Just means more, longer suffering.
Prabhupada: Yes. And even if you prolong life, how long you’ll prolong? There are trees. They are thousand times prolonging than your life. In… What is called? San Francisco, the Golden…
Pusta Krsna: Redwood trees.
Prabhupada: Redwood trees. One redwood, already seven thousand years old, they told me. So what is the benefit, seven thousand years standing in one place, very long? Hm? What is the benefit? You are trying to prolong life. Very good idea. But what is the use of prolonging life while suffering? One side, you are trying to prolong life; the other side, for acute suffering, one is committing suicide. So why this contradictory proposal?
Harikesa: Well, only some people commit suicide. As far as I’m concerned, I’m very happy. I have my car, my air conditioner…
Prabhupada: That means you are fool number one. That means you are fool number one. As soon as you say, “I am happy,” it is immediately proved that you are a rascal, fool number one.
Pusta Krsna: But everyone is afraid of death. They don’t like the idea of dying. Put if off.
Prabhupada: Yes. So therefore, you cure that first of all; then prolong life that there will be no death. Then you prolong life is… Make some understand. Can go this side?
Harikesa: So it’s not possible that anyone’s happy? There is no possibility of anyone being happy.
Prabhupada: No. One who thinks he is happy, he is number one fool.
Pusta Krsna: Everyone is searching after material happiness.
Prabhupada: Yes. But there is no happiness.
Harikesa: What about if one is in the mode of goodness? Maybe one or two…
Prabhupada: Mode of goodness… If he thinks that he is happy, then he is fool. The mode of goodness means one must know that we cannot be happy here. That is mode of goodness. And if he thinks, “I am happy,” then he is not in mode of goodness. He’s in darkness.
Pusta Krsna: So everyone at present is trying to become happy by this or that activity.
Prabhupada: They are fools, rascals.
Pusta Krsna: So if everyone accepts that there is no happiness at all to be found in this world…
Prabhupada: Then they are intelligent.
Pusta Krsna: Then what to do?
Prabhupada: Yes. Tad-vijnanartham… Therefore you go to guru. Go to Krsna.
Devotee (1): Do I have to join your movement to be happy? Can I just take Krsna consciousness outside your movement?
Devotee (1): So there is no possibility of me being Krsna conscious outside your movement.
Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness can be developed with devotees. Alone it is difficult.
Devotee (1): If I start my own community outside the movement?
Prabhupada: Yes. The community means many devotees.
Pusta Krsna: So you were saying, Srila Prabhupada, that if there is no happiness and one recognizes it, then he goes to guru.
Prabhupada: Then he must… Just like Arjuna submitted to Krsna because he was disturbed. So that is the point where one must approach a guru, how to become happy. That is intelligence. Athato brahma jijnasa: “Now inquire about real happiness.”
Pusta Krsna: So one who is looking for material happiness…
Prabhupada: He’s a fool.
Pusta Krsna: …it is very difficult for them to approach guru.
Prabhupada: He is a fool, rascal, blind. Where there is happiness not possible, he is trying to find out happiness. Therefore he is a fool. Which is not possible, if one tries for it, then he is fool.
Harikesa: But I look around and I see everybody else enjoying.
Prabhupada: Because you are fool, you are seeing like that. That is the proof that you are a fool.
Harikesa: They all tell me what a great time…
Prabhupada: Krsna says, duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15], and you are finding out happiness. Then how much fool you are. The best authority says that “This is a place of suffering,” and you are finding out happiness. So how much fool you are, it is very difficult to estimate. (laughter) Therefore Vedic knowledge is perfect. Now just like there is signboard, “No admission.” So who is the fool, create some trouble by entering into it? He’s a fool. If there is signboard, “There is no admission,” and if somebody enters to create some trouble, he is not a fool? So Krsna says, “There is no happiness,” and if somebody searches happiness, he is not a fool? That is… Therefore Krsna consciousness required, that he gets perfect knowledge from Krsna. He has no trouble. Krsna said, “There is no happiness,” and if somebody thinks, “All right, although Krsna said, let me try for it,” then he is a fool.
Pusta Krsna: Similarly, they say that they can cure disease, but it’s impossible.
Prabhupada: How it is possible? The disease is suffering, and this place is suffering, so where is the question of curing disease? Krsna consciousness means intelligence. We are guided by Krsna, so there is no trouble. Everything is all right. That is Krsna conscious. And as soon as you make experiment like fools and rascal, then you are doomed.
Harikesa: “Well, my guru, Meher Baba, tells me, ‘Don’t worry. Be happy.’ ”
Prabhupada: Then he is another fool, another rascal, mudha.
Pusta Krsna: He didn’t even speak. He didn’t speak for so many years.
Pusta Krsna: This Meher Baba.
Prabhupada: Oh, he was your guru? (laughs)
Harikesa: He says, “Don’t worry. Be happy, and just love me.”
Prabhupada: Just see. And he died of motor accident.
Pusta Krsna: He died in motor accident?
Harikesa: Yes. He was killed by a car.
Prabhupada: “Don’t worry, I am going to die by motor accident. Don’t worry. Don’t worry. I am going to die by motor accident.” All these rasals, they have misled the whole world. What is this raised ground?
Pusta Krsna: This is where they hit the golf ball from, raised up. This is the men’s teeing part. And the ladies’ teeing part, they tee off from here, little bit shorter.
Prabhupada: No equal right.
Pusta Krsna: No equal rights.
Harikesa: Well, all the swamis are saying that all you have to do is just be happy. It’s just a state of being. You just have to think happiness.
Prabhupada: Yes. That we also say, but you must know how to get happiness. That is required. Happiness is the aim of everyone. But how to get happiness, permanent, that is knowledge.
Pusta Krsna: Is a devotee seeking mental happiness as well? Is the devotee searching after…
Prabhupada: A devotee does not seek anything except service of Krsna. He does not seek anything separate. He simply wants to serve Krsna. That’s all. Anyabhilasita sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Making zero all other desires, that, he is devotee. If he is going to Krsna for some happiness, he is not a devotee.
Pusta Krsna: [break] …Vedic culture, there is descriptions of many demigods, and the karmis, they would generally worship these different demigods for material benefits. Why didn’t they just try to get the material benefits without worshiping the demigods, like they are doing today?
Prabhupada: What is that?
Pusta Krsna: Today people are making money and trying to enjoy material life…
Prabhupada: Who is making money? Who is making money?
Harikesa: The government. It is printing it up.
Prabhupada: Do you think everyone is making money?
Pusta Krsna: So it’s a big illusion? It’s a big illusion?
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone simply working hard like asses. That’s all. This is their happiness. Just like the hog, he’s working very hard to eat stool, and he is thinking happy. He is getting fatty. Do you think to work hard day and night and eat stool is happiness?
Pusta Krsna: No.
Prabhupada: But he is thinking; therefore he is getting fat. You generally find the pigs are fatty because they think, “Oh, I am very happy.” Yes. One man gets fatty when he thinks that “I am very happy.” You know that?
Pusta Krsna: No.
Prabhupada: This is psychology. When he thinks, “I am very happy,” he gets fatty.
Harikesa: But if I think I’m happy, isn’t that enough?
Prabhupada: They think. That is another thing. But you do not know what is happiness. These rascals, they do not think that what is happiness. Suppose I have arranged for so-called happiness. Then I am going to die also. Who will enjoy this?
Harikesa: But I’m not worried about it.
Prabhupada: That is the proof that you are a rascal. “Fools rush in where angels dare not.” That is the proof. The hog is thinking, “I am very happy.” Therefore he is hog. He is not a human being. Hog proves that he is hog by thinking that “I am very happy. I am getting fatty.” [break]
Pusta Krsna: …suffer. Krsna says, duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. That’s a fact. So why is it that people are thinking they are happy?
Prabhupada: That I have repeatedly said. Therefore, because they are thinking like that, therefore they are rascals. That is the proof. There is no happiness; still, he is thinking, “I am happy.” That is the proof that he’s a rascal. [break]
Harikesa: Well, we can admit that we’re not happy all the time, but what is the meaning of happiness without distress? If there’s no distress, how can I be happy?
Prabhupada: So that is material knowledge. In order to taste happiness, you have to suffer. That is material happiness. And happiness, pure, is spiritual happiness. Here, in order to enjoy happiness, you have to suffer; then you can taste. Therefore that is not real happiness. [break]
Harikesa: A sandtrap. This is where the ball goes in and it’s very difficult to hit it out of there.
Harikesa: So you’re not supposed to hit it in there.
Harikesa: It makes it more difficult.
Pusta Krsna: Sometimes they hit a golf ball, Srila Prabhupada, two hundred yards, and it goes into the hole.
Prabhupada: The same thing. In order to feel the happiness of playing, he has to go in this way. It is unhappiness.
Pusta Krsna: Such standard of religion the Western countries are not used to.
Prabhupada: Where is religion in Western countries? There is no religion. All bogus thing. Religion means to surrender to God. Then where is God, and whom to surrender? They surrender to senses, that’s all. So unless there is God, what is the meaning of religion? That is not religion. They have created something, civilized human society. There must be some religion. Just like aristocracy means he must have a good dog, that’s all. There is no religion in the world except Krsna consciousness. All bogus.
Harikesa: What is the Pope doing, then? (laughter)
Prabhupada: He’s another big bogus man. The Pope’s assistant died in the prostitute’s house.
Pusta Krsna: In Paris.
Harikesa: The Pope comes out on his balcony, and thousands of people cheer and scream.
Prabhupada: The same thing, that small animals praising the big animals, that’s all. At least they say something about God. They are not zero, but they have no clear conception of God.
Pusta Krsna: But everyone is thinking that their religion is the best. Even the Christian may be ignorant, even the Jew may be ignorant, anyone — doesn’t matter — they’re thinking that theirs is the best.
Prabhupada: That is the proof that everyone is fool. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. First of all… Therefore we have to understand from Bhagavata that what is real religion. Real religion means love of Godhead. So instead of love of Godhead, the love of doghead is increasing. So where is religion? Everybody should keep a dog and serve him, and where is God?
Pusta Krsna: Well, they think that God is in the other world, so that in this world we can serve our wife and family, and when we go to the other world we’ll serve God.
Prabhupada: Then God is separated from this world. How much imperfect knowledge it is. God has created this world, and He has nothing to do with. Just see. They say God created this world, but He has nothing to do with it.
Pusta Krsna: That’s a very imperfect understanding.
Prabhupada: [break] …you were with Meher Baba?
Harikesa: No, I was never with Meher Baba. (laughter) I just bring up all these points just so you can defeat them. I was with Maharishi.
Prabhupada: Maharishi? Oh. You got his mantra? How much you paid for that?
Harikesa: Thirty-five dollars. (laughter)
Prabhupada: And what was the mantra?
Prabhupada: “Aing”? That’s all?
Harikesa: That’s all. And they told me, “Never tell anybody else, ’cause if you tell somebody else the whole thing is ruined.”
Prabhupada: Oh, you are also ruined? No, he is also ruined? No?
Harikesa: I don’t know.
Prabhupada: Everything ruined means he also ruined.
Harikesa: For you.
Prabhupada: No. Yes, that Maharsi Baba. Because he gave the mantra, so if you disclose it, everything is ruined including himself. He is also ruined.
Pusta Krsna: He can’t sell any more mantras.
Harikesa: When I joined the movement I met many other devotees who also had mantras. So I said, “What were your mantras?” They were telling us we all had different mantras. And everybody had the same mantras. It was the same thing. Everyone had the same thing.
Prabhupada: Just see how he was cheating you.
Indian man (2): I purchased mine.(?)
Prabhupada: This is such a great cheater, and he has opened university? Just see.
Harikesa: I used to ask, “What is the goal of all this?” And they would always say, “You can’t ask that now. You won’t understand. In the future we’ll tell you.”
Pusta Krsna: “After we have your money.”
Harikesa: They keep it very mystical so that you keep thinking in the future you’ll get something.
Prabhupada: The same as the scientists, same.
Pusta Krsna: Actually, Prabhupada, by your mercy we’ve been able to see that the whole world is simply cheaters and cheated.
Prabhupada: That’s all. [break]
Pusta Krsna: Eucalyptus trees?
Prabhupada: This is eucalyptus.
Harikesa: Not like in San Francisco, though, Los Angeles. Once they gave the Maharishi four big pills of LSD.
Harikesa: His disciples gave him, Maharishi, four big pills of LSD.
Pusta Krsna: Maharishi?
Harikesa: Yes. And he just stood there and said nothing happened. So everybody said, “This is proof that he’s already there.”
Harikesa: Because he just stood there and said, “Nothing is happening to me,” everybody has figured that he is already there.
Prabhupada: “There” means where?
Harikesa: At the ultimate.
Prabhupada: Hell. (laughter)
Pusta Krsna: Yes. [break] Anyone who is thinking that they’re happy is simply a rascal. [break]
Prabhupada: …saying the black man is not allowed to marry a white woman?
Pusta Krsna: Oh, no. Neither vice versa also. There is no intermarriage permitted here. (end)