Prabhupada: …principles? What we should inform to the people in general?
Pancadravida: I try to remember that Lord Caitanya, He informed that the purpose of all Vedic literatures is to acquaint people with their relationship which they have forgotten with God, to teach them how to engage themself in that relationship and to understand that the goal is to come to pure love of God. So when I speak I try to bring that into it also because we are actually speaking from sastra, so we should acquaint people with the principles of devotional service, tell them that they have forgotten God, that they must serve God and practically how they can do it.
Prabhupada: No, they will say that “We have not forgotten God. We go to church regularly.” And the Mohammedans will say that “We go to mosque. So why we have forgotten God?”
Pancadravida: Going to church or mosque… When we are speaking to the people, we don’t discourage that they change their religion or anything.
Prabhupada: No. You, your charge is that they have forgotten God. They will answer that “We have not forgotten God. We are going to church, we are going to our mosque. Why we have forgotten God?”
Pancadravida: Because they are not serving Him… [break] …relationship. They are not actively serving Him. They are engaging themselves… We see practically that some people say they are theists…
Prabhupada: Then what is the meaning of service?
Pancadravida: Service means a relationship of serving out of love. So people are simply serving their stomach or…
Prabhupada: “So if I haven’t got love, then why I am coming to church?”
Satsvarupa: Well, we’re educating them what is God. They go to church, but they don’t know. “What is your idea of God?” We ask them.
Prabhupada: “Whatever it may be, when I offer my prayers, I remember there is some God. I may not have clear idea. I have got my own conception of God.” So what is the answer?
Satsvarupa: Well, there are symptoms if you… We don’t discourage, as Pancadravida Maharaja says, but if you are following God, the best religion is that which develops love of God.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is answered. “If I haven’t got love for God, then why I am coming to church?”
Pancadravida: If you have love for God, why you are coming to church?
Prabhupada: No. “Because I have got love for God, therefore I am coming to church. At that time I could have earned some money.”
Pancadravida: But we’re also teaching that this love, love is not just based on sentimentality. Love is also practical. Just like in this world, when there is relationship between man and woman, there is a practical exchange of love. It is not simply that love is only based on words. Also one is based on actions. We can judge how much a man is developing love by what his activities are.
Prabhupada: “So what you have found in me that you have concluded that I have no love for God. What you have seen in me?”
Pancadravida: I have not concluded that… When I speak with a person, I do not say, “I have concluded that you have no love of God.”
Prabhupada: “You say. That you have charged, but on what account you say like that? What I have done?”
Nitai: Because you go to church only for one hour all week. The rest of the time is not spent in serving God.
Prabhupada: That may be. But that does not mean that I do not love God.
Satsvarupa: Well we don’t criticize your love of God, but it can be increased. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita always think of Him in whatever you do, during your work, during the week. We can teach you how to… You like to go to church? That shows you have some affection for God. We can teach you how, wherever you are, to think of Krsna.
Prabhupada: This is not proper answer.
Pancadravida: Then if you have love of God, then we are also spreading this consciousness of love of God all over the whole world to people who have not developed that love, then you should willingly engage yourself in supporting this work.
Prabhupada: “But we are also preaching.” Mohammedans will say, “We preaching. We take also sword sometimes. If he does not believe in God, we cut his throat.” The Christian missionaries, they will also say that “We are also going on all over the world. We have made so many big church.”
Pancadravida: We have also got our work, and we show them…
Prabhupada: No, no. How do you say that you are better than him? If they are also doing, it may be difference of degrees, but we are also doing the same thing.
Pancadravida: If a person is having love of God, though, then his love is not simply confined to his own work. You say you are having love of God; we are also spreading this movement all over the world. So God is one…
Prabhupada: “No, no, we are also preaching Christianity all over the world. Our number of Christians is higher than your number of devotees. Our preaching work is better than yours.”
Pancadravida: We ourselves are coming from Christian country, and we see that the entire society is so-called Christian, but…
Prabhupada: Do you mean to say entire society is after you?
Pancadravida: Pardon me?
Prabhupada: Can you prove that the entire society is after you only?
Pancadravida: We have got our society, this International Society for Krsna Consciousness.
Prabhupada: “That’s all right, we have got our society. But we are also preaching, and we have got many countries, we have got devotees, Christians. Number of Christian is greater than your number of Vaisnava devotees.”
Aksayananda: So we are only requesting you to chant Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is a process only. You are requesting chant Hare Krsna; we are requesting prayer, ‘Give us our daily bread.’ That’s all. That is also prayer. This is chanting and that is prayer. So there is no difference.”
Aksayananda: But when we chant Hare Krsna we are praying to God, “Please let me serve you.”
Prabhupada: That is already settled. We are also serving. We are preaching Christianity.
Pancadravida: So then the work we are doing, God is one, we are all serving God, then there should be no objection to assisting us in propagating this love of God all over the world. You are already saying…
Prabhupada: No, what is that love of God? That is already answered, that “We have also love of God.”
Pancadravida: If you love someone, what are you doing? What is the aspect of your personal life?
Prabhupada: “No, what we are not doing? What you are doing?”
Pancadravida: Our engagement is twenty-four hours.
Prabhupada: “That may be. One may be engaged twenty-four hours or may be engaged for eight hours. That does not mean, you cannot say that I have no love for God.” (pause)
Aksayananda: It has already been predicted in the sastra that this method of chanting the holy name of God will be accepted by everyone in the world.
Prabhupada: “That may be in your sastra. But what is the extra thing? That chanting, that’s all right. We also go to the church and sing hymns also.”
Satsvarupa: The fact is you do not know who God is. You do not know how God works. So…
Prabhupada: “No, I know in my own way.”
Satsvarupa: That is not sufficient. You should develop, become educated.
Prabhupada: “But what is the use of it, having sufficiency? What is the distinction, that you have got sufficient love and therefore there is distin…?”
Satsvarupa: Ah, I may not have sufficient love, but one who does, he’ll increase every way…
Prabhupada: “But then if you have no sufficient love, you cannot preach. Why you are preaching for me? You just show me example.”
Aksayananda: You may be a very good example, but we see most of the Christians do not even follow the teachings. For example…
Prabhupada: Here you have come to the real point. Here he has come to the point. That is the point. If you love God, then why you disobey His order? That means you do not love God. That is the real point. [break] …is that you love God for getting something from Him. But we do not love God for getting something. This is another point. So the first point is this. This is very important point, that if you love God, why you are becoming disobedient to the orders of God? That is the most important point.
Pancadravida: But if the man says, “I am Muslim; how you can say I am disobedient to the laws of God? I am following my own religion?”
Prabhupada: No, no, we shall come to the Muslims next. First of all let us talk with the Christians.
Satsvarupa: We are always arguing with them. They say they are following. They are allowed to kill animals.
Pancadravida: “I am accepting Christ. Therefore I am saved. I am following closely Christianity.”
Prabhupada: No, no. If you love God, then why you are disobeying His order. That is my charge, first thing. God says, “Thou shalt not kill,” but why you are killing? This is the charge I give to the Christians.
Satsvarupa: Yes, you always do that.
Prabhupada: Yes. There they are captured.
Pancadravida: But everybody is killing.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break]
Pancadravida: …vegetables are also alive.
Prabhupada: No, everyone… We are not talking of everyone. We are talking of you. You love God. So why you are killing? No, killing… There is open declaration, “Thou shall not kill.” So you are deliberately disobeying. Then where is the love?
Pancadravida: “But even if I become vegetarian, still, I will…”
Prabhupada: No, no, that is not questioned. God says that you shall not kill. But you are killing. Where is your love? You cannot argue with God. Then you do not love. You cannot put your argument, logic, “What God has said I must do.” That is not…
Pancadravida: “But God did not mean us not to eat. We must eat.”
Prabhupada: God did not… That means you have to eat only meat. You have nothing to eat?
Pancadravida: But if I eat a plant, it is also killing.
Prabhupada: That is your argument. But God says that “Thou shalt not kill.” You cannot argue. This is the first theory… Suppose if I say something to you, order, you cannot argue. That is not obedience. Obedience means without argument accepted. That is obedience. That is love.
Satsvarupa: The other important point is that we love God not for getting some reward. You say that the other important thing is that this person claims to be pious, but he approaches God for material reward.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is business. That is not love. I go to somebody and flatter him to get something. Just like a shopkeeper does also like that. He flatters the customers in so many ways to sell goods so that he can make some profit. So there is no question of love.
Aksayananda: But that “I am following Jesus Christ and I am a vegetarian,” so that’s all right, isn’t it?
Prabhupada: I am following Jesus Christ?
Aksayananda: That “I am a vegetarian. I do not eat meat. I don’t kill. I do not kill.”
Prabhupada: Oh, therefore I am a better Christian, better than you. Love… Therefore the Bhagavata is perfect. Bhagavata says that… Bhagavad-gita says… Krsna says that patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So we are obeying Krsna. We offer patram puspam phalam toyam. And we eat the remains of the foodstuff. Therefore we love. That is the proof. But you are not loving Jesus Christ because you are disobeying the order.
Pancadravida: How disobeying if the person says, “I am vegetarian. I do not kill. I am a Christian, but I am vegetarian, I do not kill animals?”
Prabhupada: Then you are all right. But they… Who put forward the argument that “You are also killing vegetable?” Then how can kill vegetable?
Nitai: In Bhagavad-gita Krsna… Just as you quoted.
Prabhupada: The thing is that we must eat something. And vegetables also have got life. The nature’s way is that one living entity is eating another living entity. It may be animal or it may be vegetable. The question is the obedience to the order of God. So when Jesus Christ says that “Thou shalt not kill,” it means bigger animals. Killing is applied, from dictionary, if I kill a man, if I kill an animal, then this word is used. So he meant like that. And that is very reasonable. Because I am eating another living entity, that does not I can eat another man. So therefore Krsna has specifically mentioned, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. After all, we have to eat. And if you take that all killing is the same, even by ordinary law, if I kill one tree, and if I kill one man, does it mean it is of the same degree? Even taking killing of plant, so there are comparative. But it is also necessity that we must eat something. So therefore here, perfect thing in the Bhagavad-gita, that He says that “You offer Me.” “Offer Me” means “After My eating, you shall eat.” Yajna-sistasinah santo mucyante sarva-kilbisaih. Even by killing vegetable, you are also as sinful as killing animal, but because we offer to Krsna, therefore we are not sinful. Krsna wants it. Just like Krsna wanted Arjuna to fight and kill the other party. Therefore Arjuna is not infected with the sin. So here Krsna is asking, “Give me this foodstuff,” and Krsna knows that I will eat the remnants of the foodstuff. So I am not responsible. We have no very much study of the Muslim, but instead of criticizing others, better we shall preach our own cult. But if there is occasion when somebody attacks, then we should be prepared. But our positive business should be to inform people what is the nature of God, as they are stated in Bhagavad-gita and in Bhagavatam.
Pancadravida: When we run into those people… Sometimes we run into Muslims, Jains, Christians, and usually what we do is we approach them on the basis of our welfare work. Because we have got our work where we are feeding persons in Mayapura, we are doing different…, opening schools. So we approach them that God is also one. There is one God and we are doing work for bringing all the people to God. In Mayapura we are feeding so many Muslims every day.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is good preaching. But when there is argument, when somebody says, you should be prepared to argue with them. It stopped? We shall go another round?
Aksayananda: I think it has stopped.
Satsvarupa: No rain.
Pancadravida: [break] …dressed in shiny saffron. He is dressed in black. He looked like nescience and you look like the sunshine, standing next to him. He is wearing all this black with a little bit of red trimming on it, looked like nightime. [break] …I met a Christian, and he said “You have got your guru and you are following him. He teaches you by his example. We have got our pope. He is our example of what Christianity is. He is the head of Christian order, and he himself is eating meat. Now how you can say…?”
Prabhupada: Then how he can be pope?
Pancadravida: “But how you can say he is not the best Christian? He is the head of all the Christians.”
Prabhupada: But that means you are foolish and pope is also foolish. If he does not follow the orders of Jesus Christ, then how he becomes a pope? Therefore you are foolish. You have elected some foolish, another foolish man as your pope. That should be the right answer, that “If he does not follow Christ, how he becomes pope?”
Pancadravida: He is not killing.
Prabhupada: Then why he is appointed as head? He must order. Otherwise if you are not following pope, then you are not Christian. He does not kill, then you should not kill. And why does he not order?
Pancadravida: He himself is eating meat. So it must be all right.
Prabhupada: Then how he is pope?
Pancadravida: But he is knowing what Christianity is the best. Therefore he is in charge. He says it is all right to eat meat.
Prabhupada: No, no, how… Then first of all how you can elect him as in charge? Then you are fool.
Pancadravida: All the popes for hundreds of years have all eaten meat.
Prabhupada: Then hundreds of years you are fool. Therefore you are intelligent? Does it mean?
Pancadravida: But when Jesus said, “Thou shalt not kill,” he meant humans; he did not mean animals.
Prabhupada: That is your interpretation.
Aksayananda: But Jesus was a shepherd and there were many, many sheep. What did they do with all the sheep?
Prabhupada: They eat?
Pancadravida: They must.
Prabhupada: They must. That is your inference.
Pancadravida: What else…? In the middle of desert…? Babylon, Israel is all desert country. What will they do with sheep? They are not making wool coats.
Prabhupada: Then why he has said, “Thou shalt not kill”? Then hypocrisy. Then you reject Jesus complete. He is a hypocrite. Yes. That is the conclusion. How can you follow hypocrite? Huh? Is that all right? If Jesus Christ himself killed animals and he said, “Thou shalt not kill,” then he is a hypocrite. Then he cannot preach. He is a hypocrite. You are bringing Christ for condemnation. But how a hypocrite can be the head or can be the religious man or can be…
Aksayananda: It is not that we are saying he is a hypocrite.
Prabhupada: He is proving.
Aksayananda: He himself, the Christian is saying that Jesus Christ is a hypocrite.
Aksayananda: So why is he following?
Pancadravida: They still eat the sheep.
Satsvarupa: The main thing they usually say is that kill means murder. That man at Bhaktivedanta Manor, that priest, he said the original Hebrew, the word means “murder.” So this is an instruction to mankind not to murder, but it is not… But they have other places in the scripture where they point out that the animal is allowed for man to eat. So they just were showing us their scriptures.
Prabhupada: It is said, “It is murder.”
Satsvarupa: Yes, that “Thou shalt not murder.” That it has been changed to “kill.”
Prabhupada: Originally it was murder?
Satsvarupa: That is what that priest said to you in Bhaktivedanta Manor.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, he may say. What was previously, we are not concerned. But you have left already this Jewish Old Testament. You have got New Testament. You are not Jewish. So why do you bring that Jewish for your defense? You have already rejected it.
Pancadravida: But they say we accept both Old and New Testament. The Christians do not say we only have New Testament. They say we accept the old and the new.
Prabhupada: Then why you have changed?
Pancadravida: Because the Old Testament never mentions Christ, but the New Testament is all about Christ.
Prabhupada: Then it is rejected. If you have changed the tenets of Old Testament, that means you have rejected.
Pancadravida: No, not changed. In Old Testament the messiah, he is predicted, but activities of the messiah, they are not given.
Prabhupada: The question is the Old Testament, you say that there was the word “murder.” Why you have changed? You accept Old Testament or reject?
Satsvarupa: Accept the statement should be “murder.”
Prabhupada: But why it is “kill”?
Pancadravida: Wrong translation.
Prabhupada: Wrong translation.
Prabhupada: :They are fools, all set of fools. Useless. See one thing and write one thing. Then you are not perfect. Bhrama pramada. You commit mistake. Therefore your instruction is useless, useless. Because you commit mistake, therefore your instruction is useless. And that actually they are doing. As it is suitable, they are changing the words of Bible. They are useless. Things which are changeable, that cannot be accepted as scripture. Scriptural injunction means you cannot change. Just like we accept the Vedic scripture but don’t change it. That example I have given many times. Because Lord Buddha wanted to change Vedic literature, therefore he is rejected. Although Lord Buddha is so… We worship him as incarnation of…, but he was rejected. You cannot change. Immediately you are rejected. [break]
Pancadravida: …Christians, they were arguing with me they said, “God has given us the pig to eat.”
Prabhupada: It is said in the Bible?
Prabhupada: Then where is this nonsense? How he can say? Actually, Christians cannot eat any meat because the word is “Thou shalt not kill.” [break]
Pancadravida: Christ Himself was distributing fish, to the hungry, to the poor. He gave out so much fish.
Prabhupada: That was not killing fish. That is my support.
Pancadravida: We do not kill the fish either. We simply purchase it in the supermarket.
Prabhupada: Yes. Directly, fish, as soon as taken from the water, he dies. And Christ… Then how can you support Christ that if he has done killing business himself and he instructs others not to kill?
Aksayananda: Does that mean you are calling Jesus Christ a hypocrite?
Aksayananda: Who is calling him a hypocrite, us or you?
Prabhupada: You want to support your sinful activities by proving Christ as hypocrite. This is your business. You are such a Christian. And your love for Christ is such. [break] …that we have to follow the instruction of the superior. Even if he acts something against the instruction, you should not follow it. You have to follow his words. You cannot imitate his action. That is real obedience. You should… If he has done something against his instruction, you should know that might have been some particular occasion he has done it, but we are not concerned with that. We are concerned with his order. That is obedience. He has not ordered me to do this thing. So my duty is what he has ordered to me. That is my only duty. What he has done in particular occasion, that is not my duty to see. Just like there is a Bengali verse,
yadyapi nityananda suri bari jaya
tathapi sei amara nityananda raya
That suri bari means wine shop where wine is distilled and sold. That is called suri bari. And those who are wine sellers, they are called suri. So I see that Nityananda is going to a wine shop. So if I say, “Oh, Nityananda is now spoiled. He is going to wine shop.” No. We should not see that. We should know Nityananda is pure. If he is going to suri bari, wine shop, he has some business. But because he is going to the suri bari he is not polluted. I shall not follow him, “Because Nityananda has gone suri bari, therefore I shall go.” Krsna danced with young girls, other’s wives always. That does not mean I shall imitate that. What Krsna has said, we have to follow that. That’s all. Krsna never said that “You also dance like me in rasa dance.” Has He said anywhere? Then how can you do that? Whatever He does, He has got purpose. His work is all right. But I cannot imitate His work. The example is given that the sunshine is soaking urine. Can you imitate that, you drink urine? So tejiyasam na dosaya [SB 10.33.29]. If Christ has done something, he is Lord Jesus Christ, he might have done it for some purpose, but we cannot follow that. We have to follow what he has ordered. That’s all. [break]
Pancadravida: …argument being that Christ has said “Thou shalt not kill.” That is one of ten commandments. Ten commandments are social codes for how the people are to live. Now, the people that are Christ’s disciples, they are all fishermen. His whole community is fishermen and sheep herders. They are always… He is having fisherman community. So he did not mean for them to give up their engagement. They were all living as fishermen. He told them, “Thou shalt not kill.” Therefore we can only conclude that Christ meant “Thou shalt not kill other human beings” because he was coming at a time, teaching principles how to live with each other…
Prabhupada: No, we don’t allow to comment or interpret on the words of… That we cannot allow. You cannot interpret in that way, in your own logical… That is not allowed.
Pancadravida: “But we say that when Christ said, Thou shalt not kill, and you say it refers all living beings, we say that is your interpretation because Christ is coming to teach fishermen. He never told them to give up their occupation. They continued to live as fishermen. Continued to live as sheep herders. He knew that killing was going on. Therefore his statement, ‘Thou shalt not kill,’ must refer to human beings because he was living in the community. He was teaching by his example.”
Prabhupada: But I can say, “Why not to the animals? You can eat fish only.” Then I’ll write book like that. Jesus Christ allowed the fishermen to fish, so then you can fish. Why you are killing cows? That will be my argument. If you are actually following Christ, all right, you can take fish, but why you are killing animals, and other animals? Why you are going that “Because Christ has allowed some fish killing, therefore everyone should be killed”? What is this nonsense? You follow strictly. All right, fish-killing.
Pancadravida: What is the difference between fish killing and goat killing?
Prabhupada: Then everyone will say what is the difference between animal killing and and man killing?
Pancadravida: There is big difference between animal killing and…
Prabhupada: Why big difference?
Pancadravida: If a man goes into the road he runs over a dog, there will not be so much punishment. But if a man goes into the road, he runs over…
Prabhupada: That you have made, your laws. You have made that, if you kill a man and if you kill an animal, that is not equal. That is your… But that does not mean when it is said, “Thou shalt not kill”… This is no argument.
Pancadravida: That law was made for some reason. Because human being and animal are not on equal levels. Human being has soul, but animal does not.
Prabhupada: Then you interpret in your own way. That is actually… (end)