Prabhupada: Actually, they do not want God. They want maya. Otherwise, if anyone wants God, Krsna, there is no difficulty. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru, mam evaisyasi asamsayah [Bg. 18.65]. Four things. “Just always think of Me,” man-mana. Mad-bhaktah: “Just become My devotee.” Mad-yaji: “You worship Me. And offer your obeisances unto Me. If you do simply these four things, then you are coming back to Me without any doubt.” These four things. But they cannot do it or will not do it. Otherwise, very simple. We are thinking of something always. Simply we have to replace Krsna. No. They’ll think so many other things except Krsna. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, it is not at all difficult. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. This is Krsna consciousness. They’ll make a program: “Thoughtlessness.” That lady was…

Bhagavan: To become thoughtless.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because they are disgusted with this material thought, therefore they want to make it zero. But that is not possible. You must think of something. But they have no spiritual idea. They do not know what is spiritual thinking. They think that “Make it zero. These thoughts, let us make it zero.” Just like a diseased man, suffering for, from the very beginning of his life… Then, if somebody suggests that “When you’ll be cured, you’ll very nicely eat, nicely walk and nicely think,” so he’s coming to the stage of diseased condition, “Again thinking? Again eating? Again lying down on bed? Then what is the difference? No, no. It must be zero: no eating, no sleeping, no bedding, nothing.” He’s thinking like that. Because he has got bad experience of his diseased condition, he thinks, “Again if there is eating, again if there is walking, then how it can be cured?” He cannot think of. These rascals, because they have no idea what is spiritual thinking, they want to make this thinking zero only. That’s all. Sunyavadi. They are called Sunyavadi, nirvana, Buddhist philosophy. “Your body is subjected to pains and pleasure; so dismantle this body.” This is Buddha philosophy. “Make it zero. There will be no more pains and pleasure.” “You have got some trouble in the eyes? Pluck it out.” He does not know how to cure it. He simply knows, “Pluck it out.” This is their philosophy. Asatyere satya kari mani. Narottama dasa Thakura’s song.

ahankare matta hoiya, nitai-pada pasariya,

asatyere satya kari mani

“Being puffed up by false ego, I am, I have taken untruth as truth. And when somebody speaks about truth, I take it as untruth.” Asatyere satya kare mani. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna… (aside:) You should cover it. Why cover?

Yogesvara: There’s a path that leads to the lake here.

Prabhupada: Hmm? Eh?

Bhagavan: There’s not enough room for everyone there.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Bhagavan: There’s a small path, but it’s not very big. We can continue around this way.

Bhagavan: [break] … complicated solution to the problem.

Prabhupada: Yes. No. These rascals, they do not know that our process is most difficult. Because as soon as ask them that “Give up meat-eating,” it is very difficult task for them. And actually, it is very difficult for them. You see? That gentleman in Geneva, as long as I was talking about meat-eating, he became little disgusted.

Satsvarupa: He said, “Why don’t we speak of higher principles?”

Prabhupada: Yeah. Because this is the beginning of higher principles. “No, no, this may let… Let it remain. Let us go to the higher principles.” The rascal does not know that you cannot go without learning A,B,C,D, how you can ask for passing M.A. examination? But “No, I do not know A,B,C,D, but let me go for passing M.A. examination.” You see. This is A,B,C,D, that yesam anta gatam… Any sinful man, he cannot understand about God. It is not possible. Param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan. But without being pavitra, they want to go to the platform of understanding God.

Yogesvara: Just like that Gene Herbert.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Yogesvara: Just like that Sanskritist in Geneva.

Prabhupada: Yes. “I, I am smoking. I do not like to give it up.” (laughter) You see.

Bhagavan: I think from here we have to walk on the sidewalk. There may be cars coming.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Bhagavan: Let Srila Prabhupada…

Prabhupada: It is very, very difficult for them. To give up intoxication, especially in the western countries. That Lord Zetland, Marquis of Zetland, when one of my godbrothers went to London for preaching, so Lord Zetland said, “Can you make me a brahmana?” And then he said, “Yes, why not? You have to give up these things: no illicit sex, no intoxication.” He said, “Oh, it is impossible. For us, it is impossible.” So actually, these four prohibitory rules is impossible for these rascals.

Pusta-krsna: They would rather die than give them up, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the… Even our men, after so much training, they’re also falling down. It is so difficult thing. Actually, it is the most difficult thing.

Bhagavan: Is the path down at the lake very big?

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna…

Bhagavan: Would you like to walk down by the lake or is this…?

Prabhupada: No, no. It is all right. In India, also, although they are vegetarian, they cannot give up smoking even beedie. They cannot give up chewing pan. You see? This is very difficult task. I was thinking when I first came that as soon as I propose these things, because I have got experience that Lord Zetland said, “It is impossible,” what they, they’ll accept? And I’ll have to go back again. But I did not make any compromise. Just like other rascal yogis and swamis, they say, “Yes, yes. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever… You practice nose pressing. That’s all. And give me my fees. Then you’ll (indistinct).” This is not possible.

Bhagavan: When you had your talk several years ago with the professor in Russia, he made the point, when you were discussing about the regulative principles, that if you follow these principles, then your life becomes very simple, and if you don’t follow these principles, life becomes very complicated. He appreciated that one point.

Prabhupada: Yes. Any sane man will appreciate. Our… Anartha-nivrttih syat. Without anartha-nivrtti… Anartha-nivrtti means stopping all unwanted things. Anartha. Anartha means which does not give us any profit and unnecessarily we are accustomed. Suppose we do not take any intoxicant. So what is our inconvenience? But people are spending millions and millions of dollars only for smoking. Therefore it is useless, anartha. But they cannot give it up. And condition is that without anartha-nivrtti, there cannot be attachment for God.

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango ‘tha bhajana-kriya

tato ‘nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah

athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati

sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

[Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]

These are the steps. So after anartha-nivrtti, one is firmly fixed up in devotional service. And if the anarthas are disturbing him, then he’s not fixed up. He’ll fall down. He’ll fall down. That risk is already there. So these people are so much accustomed to this anartha, and they cannot give it up.

Bhagavan: What is the best way to gradually get them detached?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Bhagavan: The best way to gradually get them detached?

Prabhupada: Bhajana-kriya. Therefore bhajana-kriya, sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], association with devotees and stick to the devotional program. Just like devotional program we have got. Bhajana-kriya. This is called bhajana-kriya. One cannot be slack in the process of devotional service. Then it will be… Vidhi-marga, the regulative principles: chant sixteen rounds, rise early in the morning, have mangala-aratrika, read books, take your bath — these are the process. Bhajana-kriya. Bhajana means devotional service, and kriya… The yogis, they call kriya-yoga. So this lake is dirty water, eh?

Bhagavan: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Drain water.

Bhagavan: Generally, all these rivers, everywhere now, are all contaminated.

Prabhupada: That means the mode of civilization is so nice that everything is becoming contaminated. And why not the people? They’re also contaminated.

Bhagavan: That is called madness when they…

Prabhupada: Eh?

Bhagavan: Madness when they keep creating things which are hurting them, but they don’t stop.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is maya. Maya is very strong.

Bhagavan: We can go down this way.

Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna… [break] …different countries, they are very careful. When foreigners come, if they bring some fruit, “No, no. You cannot take it within.” And they keep the lakes contaminated. You cannot bring in one fruit, but you can keep the whole lake contaminated. This is their intelligence. Why they are contaminating? Eh?

Bhagavan: All the factories.

Prabhupada: Their very business is contaminated, factories. [break] Even the sea has become contaminated.

Bhagavan: The sea?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: Yeah.

Prabhupada: In Long Island and those places, if you go, the sea, the sea is so dirty.

Nitai: In New York, they’re anticipating a crisis because for many years, they’ve been taking all their trash and rubbish and putting it out in the sea. And now that whole part of the sea is coming in towards land, very, very contaminated.

Bhagavan: Yes. The article said that they dump their garbage in a certain area, and nothing can grow there except the most poisonous bacteria. And now that whole business is moving back towards the population.

Prabhupada: Reaction. Everything… Yajnarthe karmano yatra loko ‘yam karma-bandhanah [Bg. 3.9]. Whatever you do, you are bound up by the reaction. That is nature’s law. [break] …and occasionally there will be big war, and they’ll kill themselves. That’s all. Now they are killing animals. That is a separate from human being. But time will come, the human beings, they will kill themselves, one another. Not only one, two, but wholesale. Daily, millions or thousands will be killed. They want to avoid war. For that reason, they invented the United Nations. Eh?

Bhagavan: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So why they want to avoid war? What is the reason?

Bhagavan: For avoiding war?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: They want to maintain their pleasure.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Why encroach upon others’ pleasure? Tena tyaktena bhunjitha ma grdhah kasya svid dhanam [Iso mantra 1]. Isopanisad says, “Don’t encroach upon others’ pleasure.”

Bhagavan: Because they have no spiritual idea or spiritual pleasure, they can never be satisfied. So they’re always envious.

Prabhupada: So there is no coconut tree, mango tree, banana tree. Huh? These are all useless tree, simply for becoming fuel. That’s all. They’re also condemned. Yes. Sinful trees. There are pious trees and sinful trees. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna… (pause) We have to go straight? (pause) This park is bigger than that Golden Gate Park?

Bhagavan: Oh yeah.

Prabhupada: Eh? (pause)

Pusta-krsna: Krsna says that “One who is always active within is very dear to Me.” Does this mean we should struggle to keep our minds engaged all the time in Krsna’s service.

Prabhupada: Active within? Active within?

Pusta-krsna: “Active within.”

Prabhupada: What is that, “active within”?

Pusta-krsna: It is in the Third Chapter of Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: “Active within.” What is that “active within”?

Pusta-krsna: Thinking of Krsna.

Prabhupada: That is very good. Yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana. Yes. We should be always active in Krsna consciousness, within or without. That is wanted. Antar bahih.

apavitrah pavitro va

sarvavastham gato ‘pi va

yah smaret pundarikaksam

sa bahya abhyantaram (suci)

Bahya means external, and abhyantaram means internal. So we should be active, both, in Krsna consciousness, externally and internally. Sravanam kirtanam, externally hearing and chanting, and smaranam, internally smaranam, thinking — these are the process of bhakti. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna… [break] If somebody asks, “Give me one picture,” and I ask my secretary — “There is no picture.” (laughter)

Satsvarupa: Yogesvara is going to give me a whole collection.

Bhagavan: So we can walk to the car through here. Will there come a time when people will become disgusted with the scientists and reject them?

Prabhupada: No. They’ll more and more forget Krsna. This is Kali-yuga. On account of these blind leaders. Don’t you see that this rascal Darwin’s theory, that is very much appreciated? Any movement which tries to get out God, very much appreciated, that is very much appreciated. That is scientific. “You forget God,” that is scientific. And as soon as you speak of God, “You are primitive, old type.” That’s all. “You are conservative.” That, another rascal, Allen Ginsberg, he was speaking, “Swamiji, you are very conservative.” Hare Krsna Hare Krsna… (pause) [break]

Bhagavan: …discuss that the fact that when people die in different modes of nature, how they come back, and you say that (if) people die in the mode of passion, they come back in human life, if they die in the mode of ignorance, they come back in demonic species of life. So the people today seem to be… Is it that they’ll all come back as animals in their next life?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: How does a person come back in… What merits a person coming back in human life? It seems like an elevated birth. How does mode of passion give one the opportunity of human life?

Prabhupada: Generally, people are mixed, rajas-tamas. So human life, also, they’re animals like. They cannot understand anything. Just like when we speak of “Don’t eat meat,” they become angry. So what is this human life? It is simply in the form of human life. They give example that “There are many animals; they eat flesh. Therefore why we shall not eat?” The other day, the man… I, “You are not animal.” Then he was stopped. He thinks that he’s human being, but he wants to eat like animal. So what kind of human being he is? Just see. He is proud to become human being, but he wants to behave like animal. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna… Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura has taken all these people as pasu. Sei pasu bado duracara. He has not said that he’s human being.

nitai na bolilo mukhe, majilo samsara-sukhe,

vidya-kule ki koribe tara

Vidya-kule ki koribe tara. Sei pasu bado duracara. Sva-vid-varaha ustra. Bhagavata says, “They’re not human beings.” Sva, dog, vid-varaha, hogs, stool-eating hogs; sva-vid-varaha, ustra, camel. Sva-vid-varaha ustra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh. Anyone who is accepting this body as self, he’s animal.

yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke

sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih

yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij

janesv abhijnesu sa eva go-kharah

[SB 10.84.13]

Go-khara. Go means cow, and khara means ass. Animal life. (end)

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