Prabhupada:Prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27]. By prakrti, by nature, he is pulled by the ears, “Come here!” “Yes, sir.” “Come there!” “Yes, sir.” And he is thinking, not controlled. As soon as he eats little more than he requires, “You must starve three days!” And he is not controlled. Just see. How much foolishness. And they are getting Nobel Prize. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19].

Pusta-krsna: No one has ever gotten a Nobel Prize for saying, “Yes, we are all controlled.”

Prabhupada: Because the man who is awarding him Nobel Prize, he is also a rascal, (laughs) and he is also rascal. The society of rascals, that’s all. My Guru Maharaja used to say, therefore, “This is a society of cheaters and cheated.” That’s all. Somebody is cheater, and somebody is cheated. And they have made a civilization of cheaters and cheated. That’s all. They have got good sense. They have… Just try to utilize it. Just like last night that gentleman, “In my opinion…” He never thinks that what he is, what is the value of his opinion. But he thinks, “In my opinion…” And what is this nonsense? What is your opinion? Then he admits “No, no, I have no objection.” That is progress, that he admitted his fault. What is the value of your opinion? I said, “We have no opinion. We take the opinion of Krsna, that’s all.” We have no opinion.

Guru-gauranga: You caught him in the end, though, when you said, “If Krsna is man, then this is no value.” And then he said, “How do you know Krsna really spoke this? How do you know this is really Krsna?” So actually, he just did not accept Krsna from the beginning.

Prabhupada: No. He thinks that “Krsna is a bigger philosopher, that’s all. And I am also philosopher. So He has got His opinion, I have got my opinion. That’s all.” They think that. That is described, avajananti mam mudhah: [Bg. 9.11] “These rascals thinks Me as one of him, one like him.” Mudha. Avajananti mam mudhah. Therefore Dr. Radhakrishnan and other rascals like him, they think, “Why Krsna shall say, ‘Surrender unto Me?’ This is sophistry.” What is the meaning of sophistry?

Pusta-krsna: Sophist is half-wise and half-foolish.

Prabhupada: Yes. He thinks that “I am as good philosopher as Krsna. Why shall I surrender to Krsna? I have got my own opinion.” He thinks like that. And that rascal is writing commentary on Bhagavad-gita. And it is selling also. Therefore we presented Bhagavad-gita As It Is, not a rascal ism.

Yogesvara: People buy his book because he is the former president of India. They think he’s authority.

Prabhupada: That’s all. He does not know that he is a fool number one, fully under the con… Now his position. I saw him in Madras.

Pusta-krsna: Paralyzed, paralyzed.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, you cannot recognize. And he gives his opinion. Just see. Nobody thinks that “If I am not controlled, I do not wish to die, why there is death? I do not wish to become old. Why there is old age?” A common sense. “I do not wish to be diseased. Why there is disease? And still, I am thinking that I am not controlled.” That means no brain even, common sense. Pisaci paile yena mati-cchanna haya. Just like ghostly haunted, madman. He stands on the st…, “I am the king.” He stands on the street. It is like that. He does not know, “At any moment I will be knocked by any car and I shall die.” But he thinks like, “I am the king.” Madman. They are all madmen.

Yogesvara: I remember when I was living downtown eastside New York, there was one drunkard who was standing on the street directing traffic, trying to stop the cars.

Prabhupada: Yes. They do that. We have seen that. He thinks, “I am the controller. He must do…” (laughter)

Pusta-krsna: Everyone who has read your Bhagavad-gita, Srila Prabhupada, after having read so many Bhagavad-gitas, everyone has understood that “At last Bhagavad-gita is very clear and simple to me. I have not understood before.”

Prabhupada: Yes. Because all these so-called Bhagavad-gita commentaries written by rascals, that’s all. They are all rascals. They cannot understand what is Bhagavad-gita. The MacMillan Company’s trade manager has admitted that while others Bhagavad-gita is selling less, this is increasing. (pause)

Yogesvara: So I prepared one argument this morning.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Yogesvara: There’s a theory of the psychologists that — in some ways it’s similar to our idea — that people are conditioned, that according to their environment, according to their upbringing, according to their parentage and so on, they have a kind of way of acting and thinking. So their argument is that Krsna consciousness is just another kind of conditioning, that you leave one kind of conditioning, a material conditioning, but then you also enter into another kind of conditioning when you live in the temple.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is conditioning, certainly. The position is that you must be under certain condition. That is your position. So if you become conditioned by God, that is your perfection. And if you become conditioned by maya, that is your trouble. You must be conditioned. That is your position. You cannot be independent. And therefore, if you become naturally conditioned, then that is your happy life. Just as child, he must be conditioned. But when he is conditioned by his parents, that is his perfection of life. Your position is that you must be conditioned. Why you are thinking to be independent? That is your rascaldom. You should always know that “I must be conditioned. That is my life.” Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah [Bg. 9.13]. Condition. Still conditioned, but daivim prakrtim asritah, under the spiritual nature. That is Mahatma. Mahatma is not independent. He is also conditioned. So first of all, we must understand that our natural position is to be conditioned. Now, why, where I shall be conditioned? Therefore Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66]. You condition here. “You become conditioned by Me. Then you will be happy.” Those who are thinking that “We shall not be conditioned,” they are still in maya. You cannot be without condition.

nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam

eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman

(Katha Upanisad 2.2.13)

So that one God is supplying the necessities of life. That is His condition. Suppose you are giving me all necessities of life. Then it is, the best part of my valor is to live under your control. That’s all. I cannot be independent. It is not possible. That is the wrong philosophy, that these rascals are thinking of complete independence. That means they are becoming more and more conditioned by this material external energy.

Yogesvara: Their program is that if a child’s problems come from the wrong kind of conditioning, then he should be given the opportunity in childhood of a good family, good education, and so on, and that way there won’t be bad reaction later on in life.

Prabhupada: That means he should be given chance for better conditioning. Conditioning must go on. It cannot be said that “Let the child be given freedom.” No.

Yogesvara: Yeah, that’s what they say. They say it’s freedom when there is a lack of bad conditioning.

Prabhupada: That is… Bad condition is good conditioning. Where is freedom? From bad conditioning you are suggesting good conditioning. That is not freedom. Just like you are in the prison house, you are badly conditioned, but the so-called freedom — you are still conditioned under the laws of the state. You are not free. But from bad conditioning to good conditioning. And if you obey the state laws, then you are good citizen. But you are conditioned. How you think of freedom? That is your foolishness. Just like a servant. He is in some mercantile firm. He is trying to seek out some government service. But he cannot be free.

Yogesvara: So in other words, they would say your idea is to give them a better conditioning.

Prabhupada: No, no, no, not better conditioning. You must know what is the best condition and take that condition. The best condition is to be under the control of Krsna. That is your best first-class way.

Pusta-krsna: You said that in the Bhagavad-gita when it speaks of being desireless, it means that actually one is desiring for Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that na dhanam na janam na sundarim kavitam va jagad-isa kamaye: [Cc. Antya 20.29, Siksastaka 4] “I don’t want this.” “Don’t want, don’t want, don’t want” does not mean he becomes negative. “I want Krsna. So many things, ‘Don’t want,’ but actually I want Krsna. And that is my life.” And not that “Don’t want, don’t want, don’t want, then become zero.” Not that.

Yogesvara: No, they also say we know what we want. We want food for everyone, we want…

Prabhupada: No, no, he does not know. Therefore he is changing from this place to that place. He does not know. If he had known, then he would have surrendered immediately to Krsna. That is the defect. He does not know.

Yogesvara: But the idea is “We can accomplish the same good results even without Krsna.”

Prabhupada: That he does not know. He is a fool. He does not know what is a good result. He will change again. He is a rascal. He is putting himself in this condition; again he’ll desire another condition. That is the change of body. That is his wanting. Sometimes he’s taking the body of a dog, sometimes he is taking the body of a demigod. Bhramatam upary adhah [1.5.18]. Down, just like, what is that? Merry-go-round.

Pusta-krsna: Ferris wheel, ferris wheel goes up and down.

Prabhupada: Sometimes “I am so up,” and again come down. This is going on. Ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan. Therefore, in this way, going round, one who is very, very fortunate, he, guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151], he comes to the devotional life by the mercy of guru and Krsna. This is the beginning of Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s instruction. They are under the myth, under the spell of maya. This is going on.

Yogesvara: Well, they say “You are distributing food, and we are also distributing food. You are opening schools, and we are also opening schools.”

Prabhupada: Yes. But we are opening school for Krsna consciousness. Therefore the rascals, they cannot understand what is bhakti and what is karma. Bhakti looks like karma, but it’s not karma. It is bhakti. They cannot understand what is bhakti. Bhakti means the same karma, but for Krsna’s sake. That is bhakti. Just like the same fight, battlefield, but because it was done for Krsna, Arjuna is accepted, bhakto ‘si priyo ‘si me: [Bg. 4.3] “You are My devotee. You are My very dear.” But what did he do? His business was to fight. He fought, that’s all. But fought for Krsna. That is the secret. He did not change his fighting capacity as a warrior. But he changed his mentality. His mentality was that “Why shall I kill my kinsmen?” But Krsna wanted, “Oh, that’s all right.” So therefore service is for Krsna. That’s all. Not for his sense gratification. Karmi means sense gratification, and bhakta means Krsna’s sense gratification. That is the difference. Sense gratification is there. When you do it for your personal sense grati…, it is karma. And you do it for Krsna’s sense gratification, it is bhakti. So therefore they look similar, but the quality is different. Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Dhare prema nama. The gopis, they acted like prostitutes, but the center was Krsna. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommends, ramya kacid upasana vrajavadhu-vargena ya kalpita (?): “Oh there is no more better mode of worship than it was conceived by the gopis.” What is their conception? Prostitution, that’s all. Simple prostitute. Krsna was a beautiful boy and they were attracted by the beauty of Krsna. They wanted Him as their husband, lover, to dance with them. That is the gopis. And these rascals are taking that “This is very good. Krsna also did like this. So let us do; gather some girls and dance, and we become Krsna.” This is Mayavada, Therefore Vyasadeva has devoted nine cantos just to understand Krsna. Then try to understand what is the gopis’ behavior with Krsna. But these rascals jump over it. Sahajiyas. Jump over Krsna’s dealing with the gopis. And that is Bhagavata. Because rascals, they shall remain rascal.

Pusta-krsna: If the Mayavadi accepts the principle that bhakti is good, but at the end he throws it away, will he have a change of heart?

Prabhupada: That is Mayavada. That is Mayavada. They have no conception of the eternity of bhakti. That is Mayavada.

Pusta-krsna: Will the change in heart come about for such persons because they’re somehow associated with Krsna?

Prabhupada: Just like Kamsa associated with Krsna always, their position is like that. That is not bhakti. Bhakti is anukulyena krsnanusilanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], favorable, not to reject Krsna or kill Krsna, and think of Krsna, “How to kill Him? How to kill Him? How to kill Him?” That is also Krsna consciousness, but that is not favorable. Therefore it is not bhakti. But they get the salvation because they have some way or other thought of Krsna. Impersonal salvation. They are not allowed to enter into the pastimes of Krsna.

Satsvarupa: In the beginning of devotional service, the concentration is on the service more than on Krsna the person.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satsvarupa: But then gradually, as we serve and serve and concentrate on the service, then there’s realization.

Prabhupada: Yes, realization comes.

Pusta-krsna: Of who we’re serving.

Prabhupada: The disciple serves Krsna under the direction of spiritual master. Vidhi-marga, regulative principles. Vidhi-marga, raga-marga. [break] …gunarna jata nat krta mukha santi (?). So, I think it is mud.

Satsvarupa: Here it’s getting more and more moist, dew. [break]

Prabhupada: …friend, but what is my business? My business is to serve the senses, that’s all. Kamadinam, kama, krodha, lobha, moha, matsarya, mada, the six kinds of sense gratification I am doing. This is actual… Just like this man, he is thinking he is very big man, but he’s servant of his dog. Is it not? But he is thinking that he is very big man. He does not think that “What is my business? To serve this dog in the morning.” He has no sense. Because he has no prescribed duty to serve Krsna… He must serve, and therefore he must serve dog. That is his position. But still, he’s thinking, “Why these foolish people are chanting Hare Krsna? I am serving the dog. I am very big man.” He has become very big man by serving the dog, and we are trying to serve Krsna. We…

Pusta-krsna: …even though it is covered by smoke.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Pusta-krsna: That verse.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Pusta-krsna: That even though one’s activities in the material world are covered by faults, still one should perform his activities.

Prabhupada: Yes. In India there is a Hindi proverb, bekase begar achar (?)… (end)