Prabhupada: (japa) [break] …there is there. Jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva sanmukharitam bhavadiya.
Dr. Patel: Up to now, I think this is the best part I have run across. One of the best parts. And that, that particular lila of Krsna is the most thrilling one. No?
Dr. Patel: And when Brahma saw Krsna with four… and Visnu with four hands and all, all, even in cows and boys, the calves and everything, then it was the height of the whole philosophy. You have read it?
Dr. Patel: He? No.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. I, I…
Dr. Patel: But you must have read it in English, in those two volumes of Krsna.
Tamala Krsna: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I read it in Sanskrit, in directly. And there, in real, original Sanskrit it is wonderful. You get the real rasa of it.
Tamala Krsna: Do you, do you mean to say that I was reading it indirectly?
Dr. Patel: No, no. Indirectly. It is indirect. The real Sanskrit is different. He will tell you. Any other language than Sanskrit…
Prabhupada: No, no, no, there is no difference.
Dr. Patel: …will not get that rasa.
Prabhupada: There is no difference.
Dr. Patel: O rasa. Rasa nei hai
Prabhupada: No, no, rasa… (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: Real rasa comes in Sanskrit. I read it twice in Gujarati, but I, I was not able to get that pleasure when I read it in Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Hm. Viprad dvi-sad-guna-yutad aravinda-nabha-padaravinda-vimukhat svapacam varistham. (S.B. 7.9.10)
Dr. Patel: Those two books of Krsna, you have written, it’s from this only.
Dr. Patel: The Tenth skandha, no?
Dr. Patel: I mean, I read all those books which you have published. Now more books, you must send because I am a voracious reader. I’ll finish all of them.
Prabhupada: Viprad dvi-sad-guna-yutat. A brahmana having twelve brahminical qualifications… Viprad dvi-sad-guna-yutad aravinda-nabha-padaravinda-vimukhat svapacam varistham. A brahmana, well-learned, well-scholar, and just brahminical principles, strictly following, but if he is not a devotee, from him, one candala is better. Svapacam varistham. Why? Now, because that candala has-candala who is devotee candala, not ordinary candala — he has dedicated his mind, his body, his activities for the service of the Lord. Therefore he not only is purified, but he purifies the whole family, whereas a qualified brahmana, if he is not a devotee, he cannot purify himself, what to speak of purifying the family.
Dr. Patel: In the sruti also they mention that all those yogis and philosophers and, and other developed spiritually, if they have not, they have not been able to really realize what Krsna or God is unless they have become bhaktas. But in this only it comes.
Prabhupada: Bhagavata is (indistinct)
Dr. Patel: In this particular part.
Prabhupada: Yes. Viprad dvi-sad-guna…
Dr. Patel: I thought Bhagavata was a book of stories, so I was not reading. I am so truthful to you. That is, I read all, I myself, more than half a dozen times all the, mean, twelve Upanisads. But I said, “Bhagavata why?”
Prabhupada: No, Bhagavata is…
Dr. Patel: But I read it in Gujarati…
Prabhupada: Bhagavata, in the beginning it is said, nigama-kalpa-taror galitam phalam [SB 1.1.3].
Dr. Patel: That first sloka you explained to me. First sloka.
Prabhupada: Which one?
Dr. Patel: First.
Prabhupada: Janmady asya ya… [SB 1.1.1].
Dr. Patel: Ah! Janmady asya. It becomes very difficult for me to understand.
Prabhupada: It is not difficult. No. Because the question… It is the explanation of Brahma-sutra. So the Brahma-sutra, the beginning is athato brahma jijnasa. “What about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth?” The next verse is, immediately, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], “The Supreme Absolute Truth is that…”
Dr. Patel: “…from which everything is born.”
Prabhupada: “…everything is born.” Now that Bhagavata begins the answer: janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1].
Dr. Patel: From the second line of the sutras.
Prabhupada: Yes. Answer Brahma-sutra’s question. The answer is Bhagavata: janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Then what is that janmady asya yatah? And he says, Vyasadeva says, anvayat itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah. That… The… Abhijnah. That the Absolute Truth, from whom everything has emanated, He knows everything directly and indirectly. He knows. Because He’s abhijnah.
Dr. Patel: He is knowing everything.
Prabhupada: Knowing every… Knows everything.
Dr. Patel: Knowing everything. Knowing everything.
Prabhupada: Ah, yes.
Dr. Patel: Abhijnah.
Dr. Patel: All-down-knowing, all-down-knowing.
Prabhupada: Yes. So He’s not a stone. Just like some philosopher says there was a chunk and creation came from that. So here Bhagavata says, “No. The origin of creation, He’s a person — abhijnah. And He knows everything, directly and indirectly.” Directly, I know this is my body, but indirectly, I do not know what is going on in this body. Therefore we go to physician that: “Please tell me what is the ailments in my body.” So I do not know what is the cause. But the original Absolute Truth, He knows everything, directly and indirectly. Therefore He is abhijnah. Janmady asya yatah anvayat itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah [SB 1.1.1]. In this way, concludes: satyam param dhimahi.
Dr. Patel: Dhimahi. Yes. Krishna Shankara Shastri has written hundred pages on this and explained it. And I got lost in it, on this one single sloka. He has, about the last dhimahi, is also a part of Gayatri-mantra.
Dr. Patel: What this kuhakam, kuhakam?
Prabhupada: Kuhakam means this material world is kuhakam.
Dr. Patel: Kuhakam.
Prabhupada: No, kuhakam means illusion, magic. Something magician showing. So much money. Just like your this, one baba, what is…? Satya…? He creates some gold.
Tamala Krsna: Satya Sai.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) A magician in Gujarat, some Muslim magician. He would ask, not ask for a (indistinct)
Guest (3): He would not…? He would not…?
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Indian (3): Mama Chel.
Dr. Patel: Mama Chel. There was one man called Mama Chel. And when the ticket taker comes and asks for a ticket he would say, “All right, take this,” and there would be a heap of tickets, railway tickets.
Prabhupada: Oh. So a magician can do…
Dr. Patel: A magician he was. He would stop that train. Stand behind and stop the train. Stop. He must, people must have got some siddhis by…
Prabhupada: Ah, the yogic siddhi, asta-siddhi, anima-laghima…
Dr. Patel: No, but that, this anima-laghima, you get, the sattvika fellows. But these, these people who are…
Prabhupada: No, no. Anyone can get. It is a practice mechanical.
Dr. Patel: But wrong, wrong…
Dr. Patel: So the vartas (?) also get it, these sakti-vartas. They get this by tantric yoga. I can’t still understand how tantras, by following, I mean, drawing particular figures and writing down those figures, you can get powers. This is very common in Bengal side, this tantra. No? I read a book on tantra by Sir Arthur Avalon, and he described so wonderful powers come by this and that. I don’t know whether it is a fact or not.
Prabhupada: No, no. That is materialism. Anyone who is after powers, that is materialism.
Dr. Patel: I could not believe in it. How could it come?
Prabhupada: It can come.
Dr. Patel: Not so.
Prabhupada: Now, this is also tantra. Just like nowadays, they were flying sputnik, and from here controlling everything. Millions and millions of miles…
Dr. Patel: But there is a science behind it, no?
Prabhupada: So that is also a kind of science, subtle science.
Dr. Patel: This writing, writing letters, two and two, and, and…
Prabhupada: Yes. There are subtle sciences. These are gross sciences. There are subtle science also. Just like now mechanically you are flying. But there is science… Anything. I can fly with this stick. That is possible. Akasa-patana. There is a science, akasa-patana. Kapota-vayu. Kapota-vayu. Now, you can train the pigeons, and it will, you’ll fly in the sky.
Tamala Krsna: Vayu.
Tamala Krsna: And a carpet also?
Dr. Patel: You must have read the carpet-flying in India.
Dr. Patel: I used to read such stories…
Prabhupada: Actually, the aeroplanes mentioned in the sastra, they are not machine. Mantra.
Dr. Patel: Mantra.
Dr. Patel: Because this puspa-vimana, it could land anywhere…
Guest (3): Puspa-vimana also.
Prabhupada: Yes, that was…
Dr. Patel: The puspa-vimana was with the…
Prabhupada: …flying in mantra.
Dr. Patel: Not, it was not…
Prabhupada: Now scientific improvement has been done, but that is on the gross material platform.
Dr. Patel: Spiritually, they must be worthy.
Prabhupada: No, it is not spiritual. That is also subtle. Just like mind, the speed of mind. The mind is material. By mind speed, you can… Just imagine. You are here. Immediately, within a second, you go to Calcutta.
Dr. Patel: Because you think of the thing.
Dr. Patel: First going is mind going.
Prabhupada: So this is the mind. Similarly, mental, then intellectual,… You are going?
Dr. Patel: No, no. You are going ahead. We have to come to that…
Prabhupada: That’s all right. Mind is also material. Bhumir apo ‘nalo vayuh kham. kham manah [Bg. 7.4].
Dr. Patel: Kham manah eva ca.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are all material.
Dr. Patel: But… But even in, even in…
Prabhupada: The so-called jnanis, they are on the mental platform. Therefore, they are also materialists. Therefore Brahma… You’ll find in that Brahma-stotra, jnane prayasam udapasya: “Give up this attempt to reach the Supreme by mental speculation.” Jnane prayasam uda…, namanta eva: “Be submissive.” Namanta eva sanmukharitam bhavadiya-vartam: “Just hear from devotee the news of the message of God, Krsna.” That is the process recommended. Jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva sanmukharitam bhavadiya-vartam. Sthane sthitah. You haven’t got to change your place. Sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. You hear from the realized soul and try to apply in your practical life. Then, one day, although God is unconquerable, He will be conquered by you. This is recommendation by Brahma.
Dr. Patel: I heard sometimes in bhakti-yoga that you have to become pure, you have got to leave your body consciousness and become soul conscious…
Prabhupada: That is soul consciousness.
Dr. Patel: In the other conscious, and then…
Prabhupada: Body consciousness is mental speculation.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say. You must go beyond that.
Prabhupada: Ah. This is the gross body and subtle body. So when these jnanis, they think that they have become liberated, but they are entrapped by the subtle body. Jnane prayasam udapasya…
Dr. Patel: These yogis…
Prabhupada: Then they are also, the same thing: gross material thing.
Dr. Patel: The yoga means to join yourself. Your self means not body, not even mind, but your soul, to the higher soul of, that means the God. That is real yoga. And that is as good as bhakti. Or you call it yoga, anything. Yoga and bhakti comes to same thing then.
Prabhupada: No, no. Bhakti is real yoga. Others are farce. Yoginam api sarvesam [Bg. 6.47]. The bhakti is real yoga. That is real yoga. And this is farce.
Dr. Patel: Mad-gatenantaratmana.
Prabhupada: Ah. That is real yoga.
Dr. Patel: Antaratmana.
Prabhupada: Antaratmana means beyond his mind and intelligence…
Dr. Patel: No, within yourself.
Prabhupada: Yoginam api sarve… So within yourself, if one thinks, antara mad-gatena, Krsna, always thinking of Krsna, that is first-class yogi. But the so-called yogis, they want to become Krsna. “Now I have become God.”
Dr. Patel: But then I don’t think they say they are becoming Krsna.
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Dr. Patel: Their disciples say. As any disciple…
Prabhupada: These all rascals! Kick these disciple. Why… Wherefrom the disciple comes? From the rascals.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Eh? These rascals come… If the… Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. If rascals are produced, he’s a rascal.
Dr. Patel: But you are a guru. I am your disciple.
Prabhupada: So you see they are mine! They are not violating…
Dr. Patel: I have not, if I have not taken you as a as a god, then I can get my knowledge.
Prabhupada: That is another thing!
Dr. Patel: If I take you as a man, I have not got it.
Prabhupada: That is another thing! If God produces rascals, then he’s a rascal!
Dr. Patel: The guru has got to be taken as God.
Prabhupada: That is another… Guru has taken… Not that God, he’s God only.
Dr. Patel: Guru is not talk, God.
Prabhupada: He’s… just like your representative. Suppose if I have got you some business. There is a call: “If you love me, you love my dog.” It is not the dog is you. Dog is different. But if you love somebody, you pat sometimes, “Oh,…,” the dog. Just to satisfy him. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah **. This is stated. If you satisfy guru, then God is satisfied. That does not mean guru is God.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no! I don’t say I think guru…
Dr. Patel: I don’t understand and you also don’t understand me. I mean to say that disciples have got to take guru as God, and not this body as God. His atma is guru, and atma is God. So guru in that way is God.
Prabhupada: No, that is not…
Dr. Patel: That is what I think.
Dr. Patel: And I don’t think I am wrong.
Prabhupada: No, why God…? Why do you make…? Why do you distinguish between guru’s atma and guru’s body?
Dr. Patel: But the body… But the body’s not guru!
Prabhupada: That is Mayavada. That is Mayavada.
Dr. Patel: Even if you say guru is body,…
Prabhupada: They make also Krsna and Krsna’s inside different.
Dr. Patel: Krsna’s body is different from your body and my body. Krsna body is spiritual.
Prabhupada: Then why do you make a… Once you say that guru is equal to Krsna, and again Krsna’s body and Krsna is not different, but guru’s body and guru’s soul is different.
Dr. Patel: That’s right.
Prabhupada: No. That’s not right.
Dr. Patel: Atma is, atma is guru…
Prabhupada: That’s not right. Please note it. If you compare the guru is God, then you should compare similarity.
Dr. Patel: Similarity, this body and Krsna’s body are different.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, no. That is an ignorance. You do not know.
Dr. Patel: Krsna’s body is spiritual. His, any part of His body…
Prabhupada: The Mayavadis do that, that Krsna…
Dr. Patel: He can hear, He can hear by His eye and hear by His finger. And satisfy anybody, by His anything.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. That is all right. I mean to say that saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih **. When you accept guru equal to Krsna, then you cannot make such distinction.
Dr. Patel: Bodily distinction…
Prabhupada: Then why bodily or anything!?
Dr. Patel: It is very important.
Prabhupada: It is the… No, no, no. They cannot make, say distinc…
Dr. Patel: The body, this body…
Dr. Patel: …becomes ill and he has got to come to a doctor sometimes.
Prabhupada: Body, that… If…
Dr. Patel: But that, Krsna’s body is not that body.
Prabhupada: Not only, not only guru. Anyone who is spiritually advanced, he has no more material body.
Dr. Patel: That’s… From higher stand point of view.
Prabhupada: Yes. So if you, if the guru is in the lower standard, then how he becomes guru?
Dr. Patel: No, that guru who knows that he has no real material body, he’s beyond the body consciousness, that is right.
Prabhupada: No, no! Even the material body’s there…
Dr. Patel: Guru thinks so, but what about this…
Prabhupada: Even the material body is there, still he’s to be taken as spiritual. That is the philosophy. The example is given: just like you have got an iron stick. You put it in the fire, and it becomes warm. And when it is red-hot, it is no more iron stick. It is fire. Do you accept this?
Dr. Patel: I accept it.
Prabhupada: Then? Similarly, one who is always merged in Krsna thought, his body is not material.
Dr. Patel: That way you say.
Prabhupada: Yes! Yes, that is the way.
Dr. Patel: Now I understand.
Prabhupada: Because his material body is not working. That is stopped. He’s working simply spiritually. Therefore his body is spiritual. The same example: it has become so hot, red-hot, that it is no more working as iron rod. It is working as fire.
Dr. Patel: Because it burns anybody who touches it.
Dr. Patel: So guru also does the same thing.
Dr. Patel: He electrifies anybody who touches him. So we touch your feet. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Therefore, therefore he has no material body.
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupada: It is aparadha. Gurusu nara-matih. This is forbidden. Gurusu nara-matih. Arcye sila-dhir… Just like everyone knows… The atheist class will say, “Oh, here is a stone statue, and these rascals are worshiping as Krsna.”
Dr. Patel: That is wrong.
Prabhupada: So everyone knows that is a stone statue. But we are so fool that we are worshiping a stone statue? Therefore this is offense. Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara… Similarly guru. Although he’s working, moving just like ordinary human being, one should not consider that he’s ordinary human being. Gurusu nara-matih.
Dr. Patel: That is how the guru can be accepted by…
Prabhupada: Everyone knows that “Here is a stone statue.” Then so many hundred and thousands of people are coming to worship that stone statue? Somebody can argue. The atheist will argue. And when… So… We have got millions of temples. Especially in South India and Jagannatha Puri and many where. So are they going, spending so much money to worship a statue? That is forbidden. Gurusu nara-matih. Guru should not be considered in that way. If he’s actually guru.
Dr. Patel: Guru, guru’s sakti on his disciples comes from…
Prabhupada: The same.
Dr. Patel: …either way. Where the sisya draws his power and guru gives it.
Prabhupada: Yes, but if he has no power, how he can give?
Dr. Patel: But… That is what I say. So we have to take guru as God.
Prabhupada: So therefore guru as God, not distinction that guru is so much God, and he is so much God.
Dr. Patel: I don’t say distinction. I…
Prabhupada: No, you said that distinction of body, distinction…
Dr. Patel: I did not say that. You have to understood it differently.
Prabhupada: No, no. I am not. It is the guru principle we are talking. That is about guru.
Dr. Patel: I want to learn from you.
Prabhupada: I am not guru. I am… I am… This is… The guru has no material body. Just like the statue is not material, similarly, guru’s body is not material.
Dr. Patel: You say that those gurus who appear as material body, you are not to take it as a material body. Say that way. Because we are little…
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Not to take it. It is actually. If it is material body, then how they are getting benefits? If it is a material body. The same example: if it is iron rod, how it is burning? It is fire. When there is burning, you must assume it is fire. Why do you take, “Oh, it is iron rod”? Phalena pariciyate. Phalena pariciyate. By the result you have to… Therefore it is said, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah **. We, we have no direct contact with Bhagavan, but guru, being representative of Bhagavan, if we satisfy guru, then Bhagavan becomes… Identical. Therefore it is warned: vaisnave jati-buddhih. Similarly, vaisnave jati-buddhih. “Here is a European Vaisnava, he’s Indian Vaisnava, it is brahmana Vaisnava and sudra Vaisnava.” No. That is also, that is also offense.
Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Vaisnava is Vaisnava.
Prabhupada: Similarly, to consider guru’s body as material, that is also wrong.
Dr. Patel: I read somewhere that…
Prabhupada: No, no. Some…
Dr. Patel: …you have got to take guru as God from this point of view,…
Dr. Patel: …that he’s atma. You are worshiping God…
Prabhupada: No, no. This is Mayavada.
Dr. Patel: Whatever vada it is, I mean, that is…
Prabhupada: The Mayavada says, “Krsna, Krsna is God within you.” The Dr. Radhakrishnan said, the rascal. “Krsna is within. The outside is material body.” You have read that.
Dr. Patel: There is no within and without… I have not read that. There is no within and without so far God is concerned. God is everywhere.
Prabhupada: And similarly, similarly, guru also — no within, no without. Otherwise how we can say, saksad-dharitvena. Directly, if you make distinction, how he can be directly?
Dr. Patel: Within, without is (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. But he has attained that position on account of his being very, very dear to God. Because doing God’s work. Eh? God says, “Surrender unto Me.” Guru is preaching… That is real guru. He’s preaching, “Surrender to Krsna.” He’ll never say, “Surrender unto Me.”
Dr. Patel: No guru says so.
Prabhupada: All rascals says. All rascals say.
Dr. Patel: But rascals are not gurus.
Prabhupada: No, no. The gurus, so-called gurus, there are. These Mayavadis, all they say. “I am God.”
Tamala Krsna: Narayana.
Prabhupada: “Let me now have rasa dance. Send your children. Send your wife, send your daughter. We’ll dance.” These are all rascals, Mayavadis. Mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. This is the statement of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. As soon as one hears the statement of Mayavadi, he’s doomed, finished. He’s finished.
Dr. Patel: You have been bracketing so many good people like that, with the bad, and I feel strongly…
Prabhupada: Where is good people?! Where is good people?!
Dr. Patel: …about this philosophy of yours.
Prabhupada: All rascals! Let them come! Let them come. Yes! I shall kick on their face!!! I am so strong. Where is good man?!
Dr. Patel: You see…
Prabhupada: I have already kicked already that… What is that?
Tamala Krsna: Bala Yogi.
Prabhupada: Yes. (Hindi) and (Hindi). And he’s a dog! In public meeting.
Dr. Patel: I meet with all these fellows. We talk of general philosophy.
Prabhupada: So we have got some discrimination! Our is only point: If anybody is a Mayavadi, he’s a dog. Kick him on his face!! That’s all.
Dr. Patel: Mayavadi means those people who…
Prabhupada: No! Mayavadi means Mayavadi. That’s all. No explanation.
Dr. Patel: What do you mean by Mayavada?
Prabhupada: Mayavadi means who thinks like that…
Dr. Patel: All right, now, that is right.
Prabhupada: …”Krsna, Krsna is different from His body.” That is Mayavadi.
Dr. Patel: There is no body of Krsna. Whole thing is body.
Prabhupada: So Mayavadi does not know that.
Dr. Patel: And those people…
Prabhupada: That is Mayavadi. They think that Krsna comes with a “maya body.” Therefore they are Mayavadis.
Dr. Patel: Krsna has control over the Mayavadis.
Prabhupada: There, you’ll find, you’ll find in Dr. Radhakrishnan’s book, the same thing.
Dr. Patel: I never did read it.
Dr. Patel: I have not read it.
Prabhupada: You should have studied because he’s advertised as big scholar.
Dr. Patel: I studied the Puranian philosophy by Huxley. I think somebody must know, he was very good. He’s stressed bhakti-marga. Huxley, Julius Huxley.
Prabhupada: Well, if he’s a bhakti-marga, then he would not have eulogized Ramakrishna.
Dr. Patel: He is wonderful.
Prabhupada: He has eulogized Ramakrishna.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi.)
Prabhupada: Yes, he has eulogized Ramakrishna, this Huxley. You know that?
Tamala Krsna: No, I didn’t know.
Prabhupada: Yes. Ramakrishna was a first-class Mayavadi.
Dr. Patel: Which Ramakrishna?
Prabhupada: This Ramakrishna Mission.
Dr. Patel: You are a guru. So I don’t want to contradict. I am going. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: No, that is… Then you have got some selection of your own.
Dr. Patel: I have no selection.
Prabhupada: Yes, that’s all.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: I have to tell the truth. You may like or not like. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. I have to say the truth. I am saying all over the world.
Dr. Patel: That may be a truth, but all are not like that.
Prabhupada: He was a paka Mayavadi.
Dr. Patel: That may be a truth…
Prabhupada: I am still repeating. Repeating.
Dr. Patel: Let us go off.
Prabhupada: Yes. He was a paka Mayavadi. Just like… Just see that he said that he is a worshiper of goddess Kali. Is it not?
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Eh? And he became God. By worshiping Kali. Just see how much Mayavadi he is. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah yajante anya-devatah: [Bg. 7.20] “Anyone who is worshiping other demigods, his intelligence is lost.” Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah. And this man says that worshiping a demigod, goddess Kali, he became God. Just see. How much great Mayavadi he is! Where is the sastra, where is in the sastra, Vedic sastra, that one becomes God by worshiping goddess Kali?
Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit): Brahma-vid brahma eva bhavati.
Prabhupada: Is there any evidence? There may…
Dr. Patel: Brahma-vid brahma eva bhavati.
Prabhupada: That is all right. That is another thing. Just like I gave the example: if you associate with fire, you also become fire. That is another thing, brahma-vid. But here is no question of brahma-vid. Ignorance. Ignorance. Because brahma-vid, the Brahman, Supreme Brahman, says that “Those who are worshiper of demigods, they have lost their intelligence.” So how he becomes…? A man who has lost his intelligence, how he can become brahma-vid? Brahma-vid is so easy thing? It is possible for a man who has lost his intelligence and he becomes brahma-vid?
Dr. Patel: Brahma-vid cannot be attained by intelligence.
Dr. Patel: You have got to go beyond intelligence, mind and everything.
Prabhupada: Well, we are beyond intelligence, beyond all rascals. We are beyond. That is another thing. Therefore we say… (end)