Indian man (3): [break] …you see, I am now trying to learn (indistinct) something, and I find that by doing bhakti, ah, what you call puja, saguna puja, whenever I come to your place, instead of seeing the Krsna murti, I always see the lingam, pure lingam. Why this phenomena going on?

Prabhupada: You are a great devotee of Lord Siva, so that’s all right.

Indian man (3): I have already, seeing the…. My parents may be doing, I have not done much except knowing only a few lines of the…

Prabhupada: That’s all right. You remain a devotee of Lord Siva. There is no harm.

Indian man (3): And when I have been doing some other saguna puja, another is seen always.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Indian man (3): Suppose I am doing…

Prabhupada: Many, many…

Indian man (3): …Sankara pure puja then I am seeing er, Devi…. Like that it is happening. Secondly, so how to go to nirguna state? That is my difficulty.

Prabhupada: Sa gunan sama…

Indian man (3): And whenever I am praying with closed eyes, I see something, but with opened eyes I don’t see anything.

Prabhupada: That is given in the Bhagavad-gita. That you have to…. Sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg. 14.26]. Sa gunan. Samatitya. So you have to adopt this means, then you will.

Indian man (3): How to from sa guna I do not know.

Prabhupada: Mam ca yo’ vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena ya sevate [Bg. 14.26].

Indian man (3): Sanskrit, I don’t know much Sanskrit.

Prabhupada: Anyone who worships Krsna, avyabhicarena, without any change, he becomes nirguna.

Indian man (3): So saguna is necessary for going to nirguna?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Indian man (3): Saguna is…

Prabhupada: No, not necessary. But if you don’t worship unflinchingly Krsna, then you remain in the saguna platform.

Indian man (3): Hm, I see.

Prabhupada: Here it is clearly said, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. So you have to adopt the means; then you become nirguna. And if you don’t adopt, then you remain saguna.

Indian man (3): Yes, and I can come to you and just, you explain me what is the way…

Prabhupada: (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg. 14.26]. Sagun.. saguna…

Indian man (3): Which sloka from Gita, it is from Gita? Bhagavad-gita?

Prabhupada: Yes, it is ninth chapter.

Indian man (3): Then I’ll read it again and see if whether I can follow something. Thank you.

Prabhupada: Krsna clearly says, sa gunan, sa gunan samatitya, sama upena titya, perfectly transcending, this is the process.

Indian man (3): I see. We cannot do with the closed eyes.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Indian man (3): With open eyes, why we cannot do the prayers and the bhakti-yoga? What is the…

Prabhupada: For the disturbed mind. Those who are settled up, they can see always, open or closed. Premanjanacchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu viloka. One who has attained that stage, love of God, he can see every, every moment. When you love somebody, a small child, don’t you see always, huh? Don’t you see? Huh? When you see the child’s little sock, immediately you see the child. The shoes, immediately you see the child. Why? Because you are in love with the child. So that stage you have to come, in love with God, then you will see always, twenty-four hours, sadaiva. Sadaiva means twenty-four hours. You see, and you always remain in nirguna stage, and always see.

Indian man (3): But in that case, sir, material duties, they are forgotten.

Prabhupada: No.

Indian man (3): Then how can you avoid that, because conflict takes place.

Prabhupada: No, it will be, there will be no more material duty. When you wash the shoes of your son, that is love, that is not a shoe washer; you don’t remain a shoe washer. You remain in love with your child. Hm? A mother takes care of the child, washes, when he passes stool, that does not mean she becomes matharani (sweeper woman). Matharani is material. But when the mother out of love washes the child, she is not matharani, she is Radharani. (everyone laughs) And if you conclude, “Ah, she is washing the stool of the son. She is matharani,” that is your mistake. She remains Radharani. Just like mother Yasoda is binding Krsna, that does not mean that His supremacy is lost. The mother Yasoda is binding; He still remains the supreme. Therefore mother Yasoda became exhausted to try to bind Him. (laughs) And when Krsna saw that “My mother is perspiring now, she is exhausted,” “All right, let Me agree to be bound up by her.” (pause) That’s not a fact, otherwise how Krsna says, “Anyone who is engaged in My devotional service, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].” So this is a mistake to say that devotional service is saguna. (indistinct) Huh? These are one gentleman came to talk with me?

Saurabha: About the apartment?

Prabhupada: Yes. (end)