Prabhupada: “I am Indian.” “I am American.”
Dr. Patel: More important: “I am a human being and others are lower animals.” That is the greatest abhimana.
Prabhupada: No, that is also.
Dr. Patel: Abhimana.
Prabhupada: That is also, what is called, false ego. Human being or animal, they are not different, because the body is made of the same ingredient. If you manufacture a dog like a dog, like a man, what is the difference? The ingredient is the same, earth.
Dr. Patel: Five bhutas, panca-bhuta.
Prabhupada: Panca-bhuta So where is the difference? A man who knows, he will see so many dolls made of earth. He knows they are all earth. Ekatvam anupasyatah [Iso 7].
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
Some of it all, no?
Prabhupada: First of all let me, let me understand. This bodily transformation does not make any difference. Either it is made like a dog or it is made like a man, it is made from the earth. So one who knows the ingredient, he does not make any difference. Because he knows the dog or the man made of the same ingredient. Hare Krsna. Jaya. First of all the body. The bodily conscious even…
Dr. Patel: He has come.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: He has come.
Prabhupada: The bodily consciousness is also material. That is also one. And the soul consciousness, spiritual, that is also one. That is ekatvam. So for a learned person there is no defect. Vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini, panditah samah [Bg. 5.18]. This is the… So anyone who is under the bodily conception of life, either human beings or dogs, they are the same. But that upadhi amongst human being is stronger than the cats and dogs. The human being, being advanced in consciousness, they are making this nationalism. But it is nothing but dogism. Is it not? That’s all. The so-called national people are sacrificing so many lives, so many politicians, Napoleon and these big, big leaders. But what is their business? Business is that doggish mentality: “I am this body.” So it is very difficult to give up this doggish mentality that “I am this body.” Very, very difficult.
Dr. Patel: That is ahankara.
Prabhupada: False ahankara. Because he is not body, it is false ahankara. So sastra therefore says, bhagavad-bhakti vihinasya jati japas tapah kriya. A person who has not developed Krsna consciousness, for him this advancement of nationality, big work, industry, so on, so on, so on, jati japas tapah kriya… Kriya, these act…
Dr. Patel: Activities.
Prabhupada: :What are these? Apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. It has no value. But people are enamored by these things, “I belong to great nation. I am American. We have got so many industries. We have got so many cars.” Attachment. So it is very difficult. Sarvo-padhi-vinirmuktam. One, after becoming completely freed from all these false designations, to become a devotee is very, very difficult. There is no education.
Dr. Patel: Sarva-bhavena, from all sides and from all degrees.
Prabhupada: It is very difficult. So we are dealing with very, very difficult task. It is not very easy, the Krsna consciousness movement. Naturally we have got attraction for God. That is spiritual kingdom. Just like Vrndavana. Vrndavana means center is Krsna. The elderly person like Nanda Maharaja, Yasoda, their friends, their…, they are also attracted to Krsna. The gopis are attracted to Krsna, the cowherds boys, they are attracted to Krsna. The cows, calves, animals and peacock — everyone is attracted to Krsna. The water is attracted to Krsna. That is Vrndavana. And here in the material world nobody is attracted by Krsna.
Dr. Patel: Who prevents them, sir? maya.
Prabhupada: :No. He wanted this; therefore maya is there.
Dr. Patel: :So that their position may go on.
Prabhupada: Police is not first. First you become a thief; then police is there, not that police comes and arrest you unnecessary. No. As soon as you become criminal, then police comes and arrest you. maya comes next. If you give up your natural attraction for Krsna, if you are attracted by this material enjoyment, then maya is there. Again if you try to…
Dr. Patel: But material, all material, is made up of maya.
Prabhupada: No, no. Nothing is made by maya. maya is made by God.
Dr. Patel: And material is, nothing but the transformation of maya, is it not?
Prabhupada: No. No. maya means something false. Nobody makes anything. Everything is made by… Aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8]. Krsna is the creator of everything. maya is also created by Krsna. So just like government creates police department. But police department is made for that person who violates the laws of God. The police department is creation of government. Similarly, maya’s business is to capture, arrest the criminal who has gone against God, capture him. Mudha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. Mam aprapyaiva. This is the arrangement. Nobody is independent. Everything. Therefore it is called sarvam khalv idam brahma. So maya is also Brahman. maya is also Brahman. Sarvam khalv idam brahma. Why maya is different from God? It is creation of God. Mama maya, Krsna says. Mama maya. So how maya can be… The difference is police cannot arrest the president. Now it has been proved in the law. The president, the prime minister, they cannot be interfered by the police or law. That is good judgment. If the head of the estate is also interfered by police, that does not look well. So this judgment is very nice. Therefore in English constitution the first word is “The king can do no wrong.” You cannot accuse king of doing wrong. Whatever he does, it is all right.
Dr. Patel: :That is when there was Rama-rajya, sir. These modern fellows will talk all these things…
Prabhupada: No, no, no. No, no. Rama-rajya should be there as far as possible.
Dr. Patel: :They are roguish fellows. Just like Nixon. What did he do? Was it in the place of king?
Prabhupada: No, no, he… Nixon, Nixon…
Dr. Patel: :Most powerful nation of the world having a leader of the type of Nixon.
Prabhupada: So that is… Of course, in American constitution the president is also impeached. Is it the law?
Dr. Patel: This is the first president who was impeached, during all the times.
Prabhupada: :But that is not very good law. That is not very good law. If the president also can be impeached, that is not very good law.
Dr. Patel: Sir, if the government is made according to the rule and regulations established by our religions, then that president or the king is above law. Otherwise these fools must be within law. But the way they have been ruling the countries and ransacking the people’s morals and material…
Prabhupada: :No, no. Anyone, anyone who is within law, he cannot be president.
Dr. Patel: :But these are within the law, president. These are the artificial constitutions made up, not the constitution as given by Vedas and Vedic religions. Then king or president is above law — to my mind. I may be wrong. I am open to correction.
Prabhupada: Therefore we want rajarsi. We don’t want ordinary king. Rajarsi.
Dr. Patel: Then it is all right.
Prabhupada: Imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2].
Dr. Patel: :Ah, those rajarsis. A king like Janaka.
Prabhupada: No, everyone should be rajarsi. Otherwise he has no power to become king. He should be rejected. There are instances. Just like Vena Maharaja. He was not rajarsi, so he was killed by the brahmanas: “Get down.” There are instances. Then Prthu Maharaja became king.
Dr. Patel: Prthu was the incarnation of God.
Prabhupada: :Yes. So king is supposed to be representative of God if not incarnation.
Dr. Patel: That’s right. Then he is above law.
Dr. Patel: Because God is above law. But these people are representatives of the foolish, ignorant majority, and majority is made up of fools. Wise people are few.
Prabhupada: That is the difficulty. Jaya. Fools’ paradise. Eh?
Dr. Patel: That’s right. We are living in fools’ paradise. If the whole today universe was governed as it is ordained by Vedas and Vedic philosophy and laws, there would not have been any difficulty for us. But from time immemorial, even in the very place of the cradle of Vedic civilization, there were all these types of wars and (Hindi) and daityas and devas and all these things.
Prabhupada: :Yes. I have got some… [break] Krsna consciousness movement is the only remedy to make everyone the first-class human being. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana sarvair gunair tatra samasate surah [SB 5.18.12]. Hare Krsna. If you want to qualify the human society with all good qualities, then bhagavad-bhakti is the only means. Otherwise not.
Dr. Patel: That is correct sir. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66].
Prabhupada: So unfortunately nobody is interested. This is the only remedy, and nobody is interested. Rather, they will put blocks in the progress. Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: If the modern politicians of the world follow the teaching of even Mahabharata and santi-parva, there will be santi all over. What is your opinion, sir? That is sufficient if they don’t go ahead further.
Prabhupada: Santi means to become devotee. Otherwise there is no question of. Jnatva mam santim rcchati. That is wanted. If one does not know Krsna, where is santi? Kuto santy ayuktasya. Even Dhruva Maharaja, he was… He became too much restless, being insulted by stepmother. He went to the forest, but there was no santi. He was always restless. Narada Muni came, advised him that “You are a child. Why you are so much agitated by so-called insult, family talks?” And “No, I don’t want your advice.” He refused. Then Narada Muni gave him initiation, that “This boy is very strong.” But actually, when he realized God, then he became svamin krtartho ‘smi varam na yace: [Cc. Madhya 22.42] “My dear Lord, now I am fully satisfied. I have no desire.” This is santi. Even moksa-vamcha is not santi because there is demand: “I want moksa.” The karmis, they want sense gratification; the jnanis, they want liberation; the yogis, they want mystic power, asta-siddhi. Only the devotee, he doesn’t want. He wants only to serve Krsna. (plane flying over) It is going so low.
Dr. Patel: It is a jumbo.
Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: Shall I go?
Prabhupada: Yes. Jaya. [break]
Devotee (1): Can you explain more about the Stita-dhi Muni, the undisturbed sage? In the purport you explain how he is neither attached nor detached. What is that, that he is neither one or the other?
Prabhupada: There are two things in this material world, attachment and detachment. Somebody is attached. The karmis, everyone, is working. Why so hard? There is attachment. The jnanis, they are renouncing: brahma satya jagan mithya. So a devotee is always satisfied in any condition. He has no attachment or detachment.
Devotee (1): He is simply attached to serving Krsna?
Prabhupada: That is attachment, of course, but not for any purpose. He’s simply surrendered to Krsna, and whatever Krsna will do, that’s all right. Personally he has no attachment. Suppose Krsna wants to do him something which he doesn’t like to do; still he has to do. Just as Arjuna… He did not like to fight, but still, because he understood, “Krsna wants,” then he fought. This is neither attachment nor detachment. Actually it is… It was not liked by him. But he did it because Krsna wanted. Therefore, personally he has no attachment or detachment. If Krsna is attached to something, then he becomes attached. If Krsna is detached to something, he becomes detached. That is bhakta’s principle. Personally he is neutral. [break] …the difference between karmi and bhakta. Karmi is attached and detached for his own purpose, and bhakta is attached and detached for Krsna’s purpose. Personally he has no attachment or detachment. Krsna says that, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. There are two kinds of principles: attachment and detachment. So mam ekam saranam vraja. So this material attachment and detachment one should give up. He should surrender to Krsna. This is bhakta’s principle. So there is no cloud in the sky, eh? Completely clear. [break] …the sea-going is not dangerous. It is very calm and quiet?
Prabhupada: Sea. Yes.
Prabhupada: I started during monsoon, (laughs) in September.
Brahmananda: It’s monsoon and then…
Prabhupada: Not September, August.
Brahmananda: August. And in the Atlantic that’s the hurricane season.
Prabhupada: Hm? Yes.
Brahmananda: On the Atlantic Ocean, that’s the hurricane season. It’s the worst season.
Prabhupada: Yes. So when I landed in New York-(aside) Hare Krsna — the captain said that “It is astonishing there was no hurricane in that line.” I did not know. At last, he said. Captain said that he was very much anxious “What will happen in Atlantic? This swami is already seasick.” Hare Krsna.
Indian man (2): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Such kind of religious system is rejected. Dharmah projjhita kaitavah. Kaitava means cheating. To cheat God or to be cheated by God, this kind of religion is rejected. But people are very much fond of that kind of religion by which the God is cheated and he is cheated. He will commit all kinds of sins and he will be excused. That means God is cheated. And if he thinks that “I will go on committing sinful; God will excuse me,” that is also cheating. He is cheating himself, as if God is so fool that he will go on committing sin and God will excuse. These are cheating. This is not religion. God is personally speaking, yesam tv anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam [Bg. 7.28], and he is thinking that “I will go on committing sinful activities and God will excuse.” Why God will excuse? This is foolishness. He can excuse once, twice, thrice, but as a matter of routine, he will commit sinful activities and God will excuse — this is all nonsense. Pariksit Maharaja has condemned this process. He has compared the kunjara saucavat. Kunjara means elephant. The elephant takes bath in the river or in the lake very minutely, becomes very clean. And as soon as he will come on the shore, he takes some dust and… You will find this. He’s such a big animal, but he has no sense that “Now I have washed all dirty things. Again I am taking dirt?” So this kind of knowledge, that “Cleanse yourself by doing prayascitta, and again unclean.” If you have cleansed yourself, then keep yourself clean. Why you are uncleaning again? This is foolishness. [break] “What is this, pious activities and sinful activities? These are all old, primitive ideas. Now we are advanced.” (Hindi) Hare Krsna. Jaya [break] …surfing introduced as (Hindi) …Surfing sport… (Hindi) [break] …that toothpaste within the box?
Prabhupada: That is old. The new one, where it is? Now finished?
Harikesa: No, they are also in the shaving kit.
Prabhupada: Oh. So the new one it is all dried up with glycerin. If they are finished, then prepare the same formula. [break]
Indian man (3): …not taking bath in the morning. I was not coming to the temple because my bronchitis. And once you told me, “You take without bath. You go to the temple.” I started taking bath. I was now coming to the sea because that bronchitis was troubling me. But now… (Hindi) My wife told me, “Don’t go. You are a sick man. You are not taking my…” I said, “No, it will be Krsna’s mercy only.” I am ninety percent happy. Once I give some… Still I think I am, by your grace, I am ninety percent cured now.
Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna’s grace.
Indian man (3): Still in a congregation when I sit I get some phlegm. That is why.
Prabhupada: Do you feel any inconvenience while walking?
Indian man (3): No.
Prabhupada: No, no, for bronchitis this open air is very good.
Indian man (3): Good. Ah. That is good. During night, I can’t get sleep, so if I go in the evening to the sea, so morning I think… Four days, I am better.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, very good. Even if you cannot walk, you can sit down and breathe the open air. [break] Progress is going on?
Saurabha: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: Temple foundation is fixed up?
Saurabha: The laying concrete, one third has been done and today we start setting up the columns, steel work. (end)