Prabhupada: Just like bodily action. Now you feel call of nature. So you have to pass urine.

Chandobhai: No, that is correct.

Prabhupada: That’s all

Dr. Patel: Does not attach.

Chandobhai: That action, you’re not attached.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: At least, you are, you are…

Chandobhai: Udasi, udasino… [break]

Prabhupada: The sum total is how to become gunatita. That is bhakti-yoga.

Chandobhai: That is bhakti yoga. Last stage of bhakti, finally, is said like that, mam ca yo avyabhicarena bhakti-yogena sevate.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the only gunatita position.

Chandobhai: But these, qualities are the test of that man.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Chandobhai: After he attains that, these qualities are the test of that man, how we can test that man?

Prabhupada: No, no, testing, that is also stated. Just like these Europeans, Americans, in their previous position, they had many bad habits. But somehow or other, they have taken to Krsna consciousness. That is their position, gunatita. Even by habit they commit something mistake, that is not to be taken into account. Because… Just hear. Just like a fan is moving, and make the switch off. So the switch is off. That is first consideration. And after the switch being off, the fan is moving, that is no consideration. Do you understand? Because the fan was in force, so you, although you have made the switch off, still moving.

Chandobhai: Still moving, yeah.

Prabhupada: That is not to be taken into account.

Chandobhai: That is not to be… Yes, correct. Because old, past actions.

Prabhupada: Yes!

Chandobhai: Understood that the wheel has to move.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Chandobhai: And will stop soon.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That… Because the switch is now off, it will stop. Sasvad bhavati dharmatma. Sasvad bhavati dharmatma. Because he has taken to the shelter of Krsna, therefore his all past business is finished. Although, due to past habit, sometimes you find some mistake, it is not to be taken. Because this thing will go.

Chandobhai: This thing will go. That is a part of past actions.

Prabhupada: Very soon. Yes. Very soon.

Chandobhai: Because that wheel has to move and it will stop of its own.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sasvad bhavati… What is that verse? Sasvad bhavati dharmatma. That?

Chandobhai: Sasvac chantim adhigacchati, kaunteya pratijanihi…

Prabhupada: Ah. Na me bhaktah pranasyati.

Chandobhai: (quotes Sanskrit in background) [break]

Prabhupada: …may be callous. Just like some, somebody was asking me… That rascal Bharati’s article. Who? That one Australian sannyasi. So this rascal may speak something, but we cannot stop our movement. You see? Our movement is increasing, all over the world in, in spite of all criticism. We don’t care for that. Because we know that we are following the footsteps of predecessor acarya, that’s all right. We don’t mind. And actually, it is happening. Otherwise, within six, seven years, so much progress could not be possible. [break] What is the word, exact?

Chandobhai and Dr. Patel: Arambha! Arambha. Arambha.

Prabhupada: Arambha.

Chandobhai: Arambha. (quotes Sanskrit verse that ends arambha parityagi) [break]

Prabhupada: …its another meaning is “beginning.”

Dr. Patel: Beginning. That’s right. Beginning of work.

Prabhupada: So there is no beginning. Just like it is already taken to Krsna consciousness, so why should he take something else, begin here. That should continue.

Dr. Patel: Arambha-patavat. Arambha is a rudanta.

Prabhupada: And another, arambhara. That is, that is, that is humbug, humbugism, arambhara.

Dr. Patel: Arambhar means this arambha.

Prabhupada: Arambhar.

Chandobhai: Sarva-arambha.

Prabhupada: Arambha means beginning. So it is already began, chanting Hare Krsna. What is the new thing, you begin this, you begin that? No. No more. That’s all right. Final. Harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21].

Dr. Patel: But even then you have got to eat. You have got to go to public…

Prabhupada: That is going on, that is going on…

Dr. Patel: On these… These arambha-parityagi. You don’t take any, any cognizance of these works being done by the body. I think, that is to my mind, the exact meaning. I have not been able to (indistinct).

Prabhupada: No, that I have already explained. If you have taken seriously Krsna consciousness, so something happening due to my past habit, you should not take care of it. It will subside.

Chandobhai: Arambha.

Dr. Patel: Sarva-arambha parityagi. [break]

Prabhupada: This is the final conclusion of… Final conclusion, that if anyone has taken devotional service seriously, avyabhicarini, avyabhicarini. Avyabhicarini means as instructed by the spiritual master. If one takes this business very seriously, and he’s executing that, then he’s gunatita. That’s all.

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit)

Chandobhai: Brahmano hi pratisthaham…

Prabhupada: Brahma means Vedas, Brahma means… There are so many things. So many things. So here brahmanah, brahmajyoti… People are very much impersonalists. They think realization of brahmajyoti is final. To, just to reply them, this is, this sloka is: brahmano aham pratistha. Wherefrom this jyoti’s coming? This is very common sense. A jyoti does… Just like this jyoti, this clearness, no darkness, wherefrom it is coming? Everyone knows it is coming from the sun. Without this sun, why at night there was no such jyoti? Because the sun is rising, therefore this jyoti has come. Similarly…

Dr. Patel: (talking in background)

Prabhupada: Now, why don’t you hear?

Dr. Patel: I am hearing.

Prabhupada: Why not… Just hear. It is very important point, that jyoti, it must come through some source.

Chandobhai: Jyoti has, jyoti has to come through source, correct.

Prabhupada: Yes. And that is confirmed in the Brahma-samhita that yasya prabha. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagadanda-koti-kotisv asesa-vasudhadi vibhuti-bhinnam [Bs. 5.40]. This creation, all the whole creation, even this material, that is depending on the brahmajyoti. Therefore it is said, sarvam khalv idam brahma. Everything is depending on the brahmajyoti. And that is confirmed also in the Bhagavad-gita: mat-sthani sarva-bhutani [Bg. 9.4]. This mat-sthani means…

Chandobhai: Within the Brahman.

Prabhupada: Within the Brahman. And this Brahman is the effulgence of body of Krsna.

Dr. Patel: That is… Sahajananda Swami says continually that you must always, you must never think that Krsna is without a body.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Without body there cannot be anything, and Krsna had body and all this is the brahmajyoti. [break] …pratistha.

Prabhupada: Therefore…

Chandobhai: Amrtasyaiva…

Prabhupada: Amrtasya.

Dr. Patel: That the Brahman is amrta.

Prabhupada: Amrta. Brahman. That is confirmed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam: brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. So the Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan, they are, these, one and the same. But it is the person’s realization. Now, common man, they can understand what is this sunshine, but they cannot know what is the sun globe, or what is within the sun globe.

Chandobhai: What is within… Yes, correct.

Prabhupada: So those who are satisfied only brahmajyoti, their knowledge is not yet perfect. They do not know wherefrom the brahmajyoti comes, who is the source of brahmajyoti.

Chandobhai: So He has stated here.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] …as Paramatma, He’s ksetra-jna of everybody.

Dr. Patel: So He knows the working of everybody.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Ksetra-ksetrajnayor jnanam tad jnanam matam mama.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Tat ksetram yac ca yadrk yad-vikari yatas ca yat, sa ca yat… [Bg. 13.4]. [break]

Prabhupada: …prajna. This point must be clearly understood. Then you go further. A ksetra… This body is ksetra. Ksetra means “the field of activities.” Just like a krsana works in his field, and he reaps his result. As he works, he gets the result. Similarly, this body is ksetra, and we are working with this body. And we are reaping the result. Karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. Karmana. So this is the ksetra and ksetra-jna. Now… And next He says that “I am also ksetra-jna. I am also ksetra-jna.” How He’s ksetra-jna? Because He’s Paramatma.

Dr. Patel: He’s the presiding…

Prabhupada: Therefore… Therefore there are two ksetra-jnas: one, the jivatma, and one, the Paramatma. The Mayavadis do not accept it. They say the only ksetra-jnah. Jivatma and Paramatma the same.

Chandobhai: Dvau suparna…

Prabhupada: Yes, that is confirmed by the Upanisads.

Chandobhai: Dvau suparna are there…

Prabhupada: There are two birds.

Dr. Patel: In Bhagavad-gita it is said.

Prabhupada: Two birds, two birds. Yes. Two birds. Bhagavad-gita, it is clearly said. Anumanta upadrasta. One ksetra-jna is anumanta and upadrasta; another ksetra-jna is not anumanta. He’s simply enjoying.

Dr. Patel: But that is… Dvav imau purusau loke ksaras caksara… ksarah sarvani bhutani kuta-stho ‘ksara ucyate. Uttamah purusas tv anyah paramatmety… [break] …uttama purusa.

Prabhupada: Yes. Ksara and aksara means conditioned soul and liberated soul. Those who are in the Vaikuntha world, spiritual world, they are all liberated souls. And those who are within this material world, they are conditioned souls. So…

Dr. Patel: When I read…

Prabhupada: Now, let us finish. So this should be clearly understood, that in this body the both the Paramatma and jivatma living.

Dr. Patel: Stay together, live together.

Prabhupada: Yes. But the Mayavadis, they says there is no jivatma. The same thing, Paramatma. That is not.

Dr. Patel: Those two birds are living on the same tree.

Prabhupada: That is the difference. That is the difference. Paramatma and jivatma, what is the difference? Krsna says that sarva-ksetresu bharata. I… This is very practical, that I am the jivatma. I am living in this body. I know the business of my body, pains and pleasures, but I do not know what is the pains and pleasures of your body. You also do not know what is the pains and pleasures… Therefore we are individual. But Paramatma, because He’s there, He knows what is your pains and pleasure, what is my pains and pleasure. Not only you, but all living entities. That is Paramatma. So those who are falsely claiming that “I am Paramatma,” this is the test: whether you are cognizant of everything?

Dr. Patel: Right.

Prabhupada: Yes. But you cannot falsely claim that “I am Paramatma,” or “I am God.” Whether you have got this all-pervading knowledge? This is the only test to the pretenders that he is God, he is Paramatma.

Dr. Patel: But that is… They will say that ksetra-jna, not ksetra. Maha-bhutany ahankaro buddhir avyaktam eva…

Prabhupada: Now he comes to the material elements.

Dr. Patel: Iccha dvesah sukham duhkham…

Prabhupada: Yes, that is… That is…

Dr. Patel: Why they should be in add great…? I don’t understand that.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Dr. Patel: These are all maha-bhutany ahankara buddhih…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: But iccha dvesah…

Prabhupada: Iccha… The… [break] Mind is also material.

Dr. Patel: Sanghatas cetana dhrtih.

Prabhupada: Now, yes. Cetana, intelligence, everything, everything. These are all… These are all material.

Dr. Patel: That is, what do you call, the linga-sarira.

Prabhupada: But the… Some foolish people accept the intelligence, mind, as spirit.

Dr. Patel: No, no, I understand not.

Chandobhai: That is Sankhya philosophy.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Chandobhai: That is Sankhya philosophy.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Etat ksetram samasena sa-vikaram… Now, amanitvam adambhitvam ahimsa ksantir… [Bg. 13.8]. [break]

Prabhupada: …That is the first thing, acaryopasanam. But these rascals, they do not do that. They have no acarya; still, they, write comment on Bhagavad-gita. You see? This is the rascaldom. Acaryopasanam. One must go… Acaryavan puruso veda. Unless one accepts acarya, he does not know anything.

Dr. Patel: And then amanitvam adambhitvam…

Prabhupada: First of all, try to understand one word please. One word, if you understand, your life will be successful. Don’t go further. Acaryopasanam. This is the very important thing.

Dr. Patel: Every, every word is important, Bhagavad-gita… Why one word?

Prabhupada: Yes! So acarya, who is acarya? Then next question will be: who is acarya? Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. Those who are coming, the acarya-sampradaya. Sri-sampradaya, Rudra-sampradaya, the four sampradayas. So unless… Sampradaya vihina ye mantras te viphalah… Unless one comes to the acarya disciplic succession, whatever nonsense he speaks, it is all useless. This is the most important thing, acaryopasanam.

Dr. Patel: Saucam sthairyam atma-vinigrahah. Again I read, eh?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Dr. Patel: Amanitvam adambhitvam ahimsa ksantir arjavam, acaryopasanam saucam… [Bg. 13.8].

Prabhupada: So amanitvam. Instead of becoming amanitvam, these Mayavadis say, “I am God.” Just see. This is amanitvam. He falsely claims that “I have become God now.” Does it mean amanitvam? And here, Vaisnava says, gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. This is amanitvam. This is aman… “I am servant of the servant.” And these rascals are claiming, “I am God.” This is amanitvam.

Dr. Patel: Adambhitvam.

Prabhupada: How much dambhi, proud, they are! They are claiming to be God.

Dr. Patel: Ahimsa.

Prabhupada: Just see. Ahimsa means he’s envious of Krsna. He’s envious. Not ahimsa. His himsa begins that “Why Krsna should alone be God? I am also God.”

Dr. Patel: Ksantih…

Prabhupada: So the himsa begins from the Supreme. So all negative. These Mayavadis, they are himsa, they are proud, they have no sense of what is amanitvam. This is Mayavada philosophy.

Dr. Patel: Ksantir arjavam.

Prabhupada: And there cannot be santi. Because… There cannot be. Santi must be there.

Dr. Patel: Ksanti.

Prabhupada: Santi.

Dr. Patel: Ksa, Ksa.

Prabhupada: Accha, ksanti. Ksanti means toleration. Toleration. But…

Dr. Patel: Arjavam.

Prabhupada: They, they do not allow Krsna to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore there is no ksanti, no toleration.

Dr. Patel: Acaryopasanam saucam sthairyam atma-vinigrahah. Saucam sthairyam atma-vinigrahah, indriyarthesu vairagyam…

Prabhupada: Saucam. Saucam… Saucam means yah smaret pundarikaksam sa bahyabhyantaram sucih. Because he does not know what is pundarikaksam, he does not chant Hare Krsna, therefore he’s not saucam. This is saucam.

Dr. Patel: Sthairyam.

Prabhupada: Sthairyam means fixed-up: krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. That is sthairyam.

Dr. Patel: Atma-vinigrahah.

Prabhupada: Atma-vinigrahah. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Indriyarthesu vairagyam anahankaram eva ca.

Prabhupada: Anahan… This is the first-class ahankara, that “I have become God.”

Dr. Patel: Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9].

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Asaktir ana… [break] …putra-dara-grhadisu, nityam ca sama-cittatvam…

Prabhupada: So they have no, mean, detachment for putra-dara-grhadisu. They talk very big, big words, but attached to the putra-dara-grhadisu. (laughs) This is not knowledge. This is ignorance. The test is there, whether you have become detached from putra-dara-grhadisu. If not, you are in ignorance. You may talk very, very, big, big words. That has no meaning. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Nityam ca sama-cittatvam istanistopapattisu, mayi cananya-yogena…

Prabhupada: Ah! Again the same thing. The basic principle is mayi cananya-yogena bhakti-yogena…

Dr. Patel: Bhaktir avyabhicarini vivikta-desa-sevitvam… [Bg. 13.11].

Prabhupada: This is, this is the basic principle. Without this, everything is false. Everything is false.

Dr. Patel: Vivikta-desa-sevitvam aratir jana-samsadi, adhyatma-jnana-nityatvam tattva artha…

Chandobhai: Tattva-jnanartha…

Dr. Patel: Tattva-jnanartha-darsanam.

Prabhupada: Yes. Artha-darsanam.

Dr. Patel: Tattva-jnanartha-darsanam. When you have perfect knowledge of the tattva jnana.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is tattva-jnana. This is jnana. This is jnana. Basic principle of jnana is ananya-bhakti-yogena. That is the basic principle of jnana. Then other things will automatically come.

Dr. Patel: Ajnanam yad ato ‘nyatha.

Prabhupada: Therefore… Therefore in other place in Bhagavata: harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. If one is not pure devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. That is not possible. Because here is also same thing. The basic principle is devotion. If that is lacking, then all this show, humbug, it has no meaning.

Dr. Patel: No, that is, we have said about the jnana… [break] …param brahma na sat…

Prabhupada: Now, who is that param brahma? That Krsna. Because Arjuna says, param brahma param dhama… [Bg. 10.12].

Dr. Patel: Brahman means Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Brahman is jyoti.

Prabhupada: No, param brahma. Brahmajyoti, that is not param brahma. Param brahma is Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Param brahma is Krsna.

Prabhupada: Param brahma is Krsna. Param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. So param brahman is Krsna. The jnana means one who knows Krsna, he has got knowledge. Otherwise he’s a rascal. That’s all. Maybe a big rascal or small rascal.

Dr. Patel: Like me.

Prabhupada: (laughs) But anyone who does not know… That is confirmed in another place: bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is the sign. When one surrenders to Krsna, then it is to be understood that he’s really wise. Otherwise…

Dr. Patel: Anadi mat-param brahma na sat asat tad ucyate. Neither sat or asat. Neither existence or nonexistence.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Not even by sat.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sat and asat. Asat… Cause and effect of this material world.

Dr. Patel: Cause and effect. Not existence and nonexistence.

Prabhupada: No.

Dr. Patel: Cause and effect.

Prabhupada: Cause and effect. The mahat-tattva… Mahat-tattva is cause, and this cosmic manifestation is the effect. So beyond that, beyond that. Therefore Krsna is said: mahat-padam. The mahat-tattva is lying at His lotus feet. Samasrita ye pada-pallavam plavam mahat-padam. Mahat-tattva is lying on the lotus feet of Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Mahat-tattva is nothing but the beginning of the…

Prabhupada: It is the total, sum total of material energy.

Dr. Patel: Of cosmic energy, yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is mahat-tattva.

Dr. Patel: Shall I read further?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sarvatah pani-padam tat sarvato ‘ksi-siro-mukham, sarvatah srutimal loke…

Prabhupada: Now, we are, we are part and parcel of Krsna. So the, my eyes, my hands, my legs, that is Krsna’s. Do you see? This is sarvatah pani-pada. So if we understand this philosophy, that these eyes…

Dr. Patel: Belong to Krsna.

Prabhupada: …these… Belong to Krsna. This hand belongs to Krsna. But now, we are under the…, “This is my hand. This is my eye. This is my body.” This is illusion.

Dr. Patel: Now this “my” should belong to Krsna. Then everything belongs to Krsna. Everything belongs…

Prabhupada: (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: Ego must belong to Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, so everything belongs to Krsna. Therefore, with my hands, with my legs, with my eyes, I cannot do anything except serving Krsna. How we can do? If the eyes belong to Krsna, then how the eyes can be used for other purpose? This is real knowledge. That is explained in the Narada-pancaratra: sarvopadhi vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. That is nirmala. Nirmala eyes. Brahma-bhuta. That is brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20].

Dr. Patel: Sarvendriya gunabhasam sarva-indriya vivarjitam.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now…

Dr. Patel: Asaktam sarva-bhutesu nirgunam guna-bhoktr ca.

Prabhupada: He… He has got indriyas, indriya. Just like in the Vedas it is stated, apani-pado javano grhita. “He has no hands and legs, but He takes whatever you offer.” So now, that, as soon as this word is there, that “He accepts whatever you offer,” that means He has got hand. Indriyabhasa. Indriyabhasa. But not this indriya, the three feet hand. Suppose if you offer me something. You are three feet away. I cannot take it. But Krsna is in Vaikuntha. If you offer Him, oh, He can accept. Otherwise… He says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Now He is in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana. We cannot calculate where He is. How He’s taking? This is material calculation. But He has got such a hand that anywhere you live, He can accept. Otherwise, if He has no hand… Therefore “He has no hand” means He has no this little hand like me.

Dr. Patel: He has got no…

Prabhupada: Unlimited hand. Unlimited hand. That, that you cannot… “How Krsna have body, this?” The Mayavadi philosophers think, “How there can be body? If He has a body, then He has limited potency.” He cannot understand that although He has got body, He has got unlimited potency. Isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah. That is different from this body. Because he understands that “There cannot be any body different from this,” they say nirakara. Not nirakara. He has got body. He has got senses. He has got hand. But not like you.

Dr. Patel: Sarvendriya-gunabhasam sarvendriya-vivarjitam…

Prabhupada: Yes. Sarvendriya-vivarjitam means these rascal hands, legs, are vivarjitam. But He has got His particular type of hands and legs. That they cannot understand. They, their limited knowledge does not allow them to know that there can be another hand which can be extended millions and millions of miles. That they cannot understand. Therefore avajananti mam mudha manusim tanu… [Bg. 9.11]. They think, “Krsna is like us. How He can be God?”

Dr. Patel: Asaktam sarva-bhrc caiva nirgunam guna-bhoktr ca.

bahir antas ca bhutanam

acaram caram eva ca

suksmatvat tad avijneyam

durastham cantike ca tat

Prabhupada: Yes. Durastham antike ca. Durastham, nobody knows where is Goloka Vrndavana, how many miles away. Durastha. They cannot calculate. But antike ca, He’s within. He can accept your service.

Dr. Patel: Avibhaktam ca bhutesu vibhaktam iva ca sthitam.

Prabhupada: Yes. Avibhakt… The Paramatma, He is distributed. That does not mean He has become many. He’s still one. Avibhaktam. Although, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ‘rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61], you cannot calculate, “Now isvara is now divided, so His original position is now gone.”

Dr. Patel: Bhuta-bhartr ca taj jneyam grasisnu prabhavisnu ca.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Jyotisam api taj jyotis…

Prabhupada: Here… Jyotisam api taj jyotih.

Dr. Patel: Jnanam jneyam jnana-gamyam…

Prabhupada: This, this… We have got jyoti calculation of this sun. But the sun is only a reflection of the brahmajyoti.

Dr. Patel: Jyotisam api taj jyotis tamasah param ucyate.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Jnanam jneyam jnana-gamyam hrdi sarvasya visthitam.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Iti ksetram tatha jnanam jneyam coktum samasatah, mad-bhakta etad vijnaya… [Bg. 13.19].

Prabhupada: Mad-bhakta. Not rascals. The mad-bhakta can explain these things, not others.

Dr. Patel: Yes. Now, now conclusion.

Prabhupada: Is it clear?

Dr. Patel: Yes. Absolutely. I am a rascal. (Prabhupada laughs) That is, I am reading.

Prabhupada: You are a bhakta. How you can be rascal?

Dr. Patel: But sometimes I become. Prakrtim ca,

prakrtim purusam caiva

viddhy anadi ubhav api

vikarams ca gunams caiva

viddhi prakrti-sambhavan

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel:


hetuh prakrtir ucyate

purusah sukha-duhkhanam

bhoktrtve hetur ucyate

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: This is very important. Purusah sukha-duhkhanam bhoktrtve…

Prabhupada: Yes, as you, as you… Just like police. Police will punish you. You will have to suffer. But it is due to your criminal action police has arrested you. You cannot make police responsible for your suffering.

Dr. Patel: And here policeman is jiva, no? That is what my difficulty is.

Prabhupada: No. The prakrti… What is that?

Dr. Patel: Purusah prakrti-stho hi bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan… [Bg. 13.22].

Prabhupada: Ah, that purusa means jivatma, jivatma.

Dr. Patel: Jivatma, not Paramatma. That’s right.

Prabhupada: Jivatma is within this body, prakrti. This is prakrti, material nature, jivatma. So as you infect the quality of the prakrti, you become, what is called, entangled.

Dr. Patel: And highest line comes in.

Prabhupada: You become… I am explaining. You become entangled. Now, as soon as you become entangled… Suppose you become a dog. Now you suffer.

Dr. Patel: But when the dog is there, he does not think he’s suffering. He’s just like that pig.

Prabhupada: That is illusion. That is called moha, moha. One is suffering. Everyone is suffering. Suppose a big man, a minister, or the prime minister, or the chief minister, he’s also suffering. But he’s thinking, “Now I am prime minister.” That is illusion. Nobody, nobody is here peaceful. Everyone is suffering. Because threefold miseries. That is the conditional life. And after all, Krsna says that “If you are thinking that you are very happy, that you must know at least these things: janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9].” How you can get out of it? You’ll die. Nobody wants to die.

Dr. Patel: Body dies.

Prabhupada: But these rascals, they do… say, “Death is natural.” But why don’t you like to die? That is suffering. But he thinks, “No, no, it is good.” But as soon as I say, “I shall kill you,” “No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don’t kill me. Don’t kill me.” He does not like to die, but…

Chandobhai: Very helplessly.

Prabhupada: Helplessly. Just like…

Dr. Patel: Swamiji, who dies?

Prabhupada: Now, again you are…

Dr. Patel: Because he has got this… [break]

Prabhupada: …identification is all right, but you must come to the practical point. Then don’t treat any patient. You can say, “Who is suffering?”

Dr. Patel: “Body.”

Prabhupada: “Who is suffering…?”

Dr. Patel: We are treating the body.

Prabhupada: “There is no need of taking medicine.”

Dr. Patel: I am treating the body. I am not in… You are treating the…

Prabhupada: That’s all right. That body is there, and you are absorbed in body. Therefore there is suffering. You may say that “I am not this body, and I am not this body,” but when the body’s going to be killed, you become afraid. Because you are absorbed. Why go beyond this practical point?

Dr. Patel: Accha.

Prabhupada: Just like everyone knows that you are not the motor car. Everyone knows it. But as soon as there is any breakage in the nice motor car, “Oh, I am gone.” Why, where you gone? You are not motor car. But because you are absorbed in the sense that “It is my car, my car, my car,” you have become absorbed. So any accident to the motor car, you become unhappy. But everyone knows you are not motor car. Why you become unhappy? This is called maya. So you are not completely free. So so long we are in this body, so the sufferings of the body is there. Therefore Krsna says that tams titiksasva bharata. “Just tolerate.” Just tolerate.

Matra sparsas tu kaunteya


agamapayino ‘nityas

tams titiksasva…

[Bg. 2.14]

You don’t be mad, but, because “My motor car is now broken.” Or, “There is some accident in my house.” But you are not house, neither you are motor car. Everyone knows that. But why you have become so much affected? There, therefore tams titiksasva bharata. You have to tolerate.

Dr. Patel: Purusah prakrti-stho hi bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan… [Bg. 13.22].

Prabhupada: Karanam guna-sango ‘sya. You are suffering because you have associated with a particular type of material quality. Just like you have associated with some infectious disease. Now you are suffering. Karanam guna-sango’ sya. Why you affect…? Therefore one should remain always in sattva-guna. Sattva-guna. What is that verse in the Bhagavata?

nasta-prayesu abhadresu

nityam bhagavatah-sevaya

bhagavaty uttama-sloke

bhaktir bhavati naisthiki

[SB 1.2.18]

tada rajas-tamo-bhavah

kama-lobhadayas ca ye

ceta etair anaviddham

sthitam sattve prasidati

[SB 1.2.19]

We have to go the platform of sattva-guna. Therefore these boys are being trained how to become in the sattva-guna. You cannot become a wise man… You remain in the rajo-guna and tamo-guna, and you become a wise man. That is not possible. You must suffer. So long you are infected with rajo-guna and tamo-guna. So this is the process. Evam prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogatah [SB 1.2.20]. Again, bhagavad-bhakti. If you remain in the bhagavad-bhakti-yoga, then you become prasanna-manaso, sattva-guna. Ceta etair anaviddham sthitam sattve prasidati.

Dr. Patel: Upadrastanumanta ca… [Bg. 13.23]. [break]

Prabhupada: …atma, Paramatma. Yes.

Dr. Patel: …paramatmeti capy ukto dehe ‘smin purusah parah.

Prabhupada: This is… And these Mayavadi rascals say that the Paramatma and jivatma are the same.

Dr. Patel:

ya evam vetti purusam

prakrtim ca gunaih saha

sarvatha vartamano ‘pi

na sa bhuyo ‘bhijayate

[Bg. 13.24]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sarvartha vartamanah means whatever action we do… [break]

Prabhupada: …yoga. But when I come to know that I am eternal part and parcel and engage Myself in the service of the Lord, then I am liberated. Even one may call me, “You are bhangi, you are camara, you are this or that,” but I do not belong to these things. I belong… Gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. That’s all.

Dr. Patel: Now, these, these two lines have the… [break] …anye sankhyena yogena karma-yogena capare.

Prabhupada: Yes. This sankhya-yoga… Sankhya-yoga does not mean this atheist Kapila sankhya-yoga. There is another Kapila; he is imitation. That is Kapila, Devahuti-putra Kapila. That sankhya-yoga. Sankhya-yoga. That is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Third Canto.

Dr. Patel: No, karma-yogena.

Prabhupada: Karma-yogena also. Karma-yoga and…

Dr. Patel: Any work you do for the sake of Krsna…

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Patel: …is karma-yoga. And yogena means?

Prabhupada: Yoga means to connect with Krsna. Nirbandhe krsna-sambandha. That is yoga. [break] …in touch with Krsna, this Hare Krsna. Always in touch. Because the Krsna’s name and Krsna is nondifferent. So if you chant Hare Krsna, then you are always in Krsna, with Krsna. Even while walking on the beach, chanting Hare Krsna means we are walking with Krsna.

Dr. Patel: And we are reading this Bhagavad-gita. Here, we are chanting.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is also.

Dr. Patel: Chanting, no?

Prabhupada: That is also chanting. Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel:

yavat sanjayate kincit

sattvam sthavara-jangamam


tad viddhi bharatarsabha

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Samam sarvesu bhutesu…

Prabhupada: The whole world… That is another way explained.

apareyam itas tu (anyam)

viddhi me prakrtim para

jiva-bhutam maha-baho

yayedam dharyate jagat

[Bg. 7.5]

Why… Why this whole world is going on? Cosmic manifestation? The ksetra-ksetra-jna. Because the ksetra is there, matter, and the spirit soul is there, therefore the whole world is going on. Why the trees, (I) mean, living? Because the ksetra is there.

Dr. Patel: Ksetra-jna.

Prabhupada: Ksetra-jna, yes. Ksetra is also there; ksetra-jna is also there.

Dr. Patel: Ksetra is the tree and ksetra-jna is…

Prabhupada: This body’s also. The ksetra is there, ksetra-jna is there. Similarly…

Dr. Patel: Samam sarvesu bhutesu…

Prabhupada: Samam sarvesu bhutesu means the ksetra-jna is there.

Dr. Patel: Tisthantam paramesvaram…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Vinasyatsv avinasyantam…

Prabhupada: There is also Paramatma. It does not mean because he’s dog, there is no Paramatma. There is also Paramatma. Because Krsna says, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ‘rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. Krsna does not discriminate that “I shall not remain within the body of dog. I shall remain within the body of a brahmana only.” No. Sarva-ksetresu bharata. This is samata, that… Because a devotee can understand that Krsna is there within the dog, within the cat… Simi…,


brahmane gavi hastini

suni caiva sva-pake ca

panditah sama-darsinah

[Bg. 5.18]

He knows that in everywhere, in every body, there is the Paramatma. And atma also. Then samah sarvesu bhutesu.

Dr. Patel:

samam sarvesu bhutesu

tisthantam paramesvaram

vinasyatsv avinasyantam

yah pasyati sa pasyati

[Bg. 13.28]

Prabhupada: Ah.

Dr. Patel:

samam pasyan hi sarvatra

samavasthitam isvaram

na hinasty atmanatmanam

tato yati param gatim

[Bg. 13.29]

Prabhupada: That, that samata, he knows that Paramatma is everywhere. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. But that does not mean paramanu has become Paramatma. Daridra has become Narayana. This is rascaldom. This is rascaldom. Daridra is daridra. But you know, within the daridra, there is Narayana. That is another thing. But that does not mean Narayana has become daridra. This is rascaldom.

Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)

Guest 3 (Indian man): You can say it is no good. Narayana…

Prabhupada: This rascaldom is going on. Daridra-narayana. What is this nonsense? Narayana has become daridra?

Dr. Patel: No, but my one point is there. You may call me a fool even. I don’t mind. But everything is covered by God. Even so in daridra, that is covered by God.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is rascaldom. Everything is covered by God. But that does not mean everything is God.

Dr. Patel: I did not say everything is God. I said everything is…

Prabhupada: That everyone knows. Sarvam khalv idam brahma. That is not a very new thing.

Dr. Patel: So, so daridrata is also covered by…

Prabhupada: Yes, without, without God, there cannot be anything.

Dr. Patel: There should be an ounce of Narayana…

Prabhupada: That does not mean… That I have already explained. But that does not mean he has become Narayana.

Dr. Patel: I don’t say he has become Narayana.

Prabhupada: But they, they say, daridra-narayana. They say, the rascals say like that.

Dr. Patel: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] …difficulty. All rascals, they have become leaders. They have no knowledge, and they become leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaos.

Dr. Patel:

prakrtyaiva ca karmani

kriyamanani sarvasah

yah pasyati tathatmanam

akartaram sa pasyati

[Bg. 13.30]

We should understand that we cannot do anything.

Prabhupada: Krsna… Krsna… Doctor Shah. Mister Shah? Krsna says…

Dr. Shah: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: …that evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. Unless one comes to the parampara system, he cannot understand the knowledge. But these rascals, without in the parampara system, they interpret.

Dr. Shah: According to you, how many paramparas are there?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Shah: How many paramparas are there?

Prabhupada: No, no, how many, don’t take many. Take one.

Dr. Shah: One, yes.

Prabhupada: Now, Krsna is speaking to Arjuna. That is a fact.

Dr. Shah: Oh, that way also, he understood(?).

Prabhupada: Yes. So as Arjuna understands, you take that. But all the rascals, they are going to understand Krsna which is not spoken by Arjuna. Krsna… Arjuna understood Krsna. Param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. Do they accept that?

Dr. Patel: They must accept.

Prabhupada: Then why they should comment? Poke them in the… When he’s rascal and does not know anything about Krsna. Why should you write comment on Bhagavad-gita? Let him do his own business. Why you should come here? That is our protest.

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Everyone has got a right to comment.

Prabhupada: Just like he’s a medical man. He’s doing something. If a storekeeper comes… “Doctor Shah,” (Hindi) What is this nonsense? What you are? You cannot say… He’s a lawyer. If I say, “Mister Lawyer, why don’t you accept this law?” will you accept?

Chandobhai: All the great acaryas have commented it.

Prabhupada: Yes!

Chandobhai: Madhvacarya…

Prabhupada: You you, you… Yes! That you should follow. That you should follow. You should follow Ramanujacarya. Yes. Acarya… Acaryopasanam. Even Sankaracarya. Yes. Those who have been accepted acaryas, then… Then you accept. But how one becomes acarya? When he comes to the parampara system. He cannot become all of a sudden acarya, without caring for…

Chandobhai: There are so many commentaries on Bhagavad-gita, Upanisads, Vedanta…

Prabhupada: Just like this Dayananda, he did not care for anyone. He became acarya. He started.

Chandobhai: As I understand, or I am given to understand is that… [break] …they accepted it…

Prabhupada: The… [break] That is not required now. For the time being. That is not required now. [break]

Dr. Patel: …bhavam eka-stham anupasyati, tata eva ca vistaram brahma sampadyate tada [Bg. 13.31].

Prabhupada: Yes. Because… Just these elements, material elements, bhuta, they are Krsna’s energy. Therefore one who knows Krsna, he does not take anything as material. Because it is Krsna’s energy. So Krsna’s energy means… What is called?

Dr. Shah: Property.

Prabhupada: No, there is a verse. Sakti-saktimator abhedah. Abhedah. Sakti means energy, and the saktiman… That… saktiman is called saktimat. So because it comes from the saktiman, saktiman, the all spirit, therefore those who are very advanced devotees, for, in their vision, there is nothing material.

Chandobhai: There is no separation.

Prabhupada: Yes. There is nothing. Abheda. Because it is admitted that bhinna prakrtir me astadha. So this is sakti. And saktimat is Krsna. So when it is emanating from Krsna… Therefore it is called inferior. Inferior. Inferior. He does not say…

Indian 3: Because it is not possible without saktiman.

Prabhupada: Without saktiman. [break]

Devotee: :”…bodies, he attains to the Brahman conception. Thus he sees that beings are expanded everywhere.” That’s the same verse. But what does this mean, “thus he sees that beings are expanded everywhere”?

Prabhupada: Yes. Everywhere there is living being. [break]

Dr. Patel: …avyayah, sarira-stho ‘pi kaunteya na karoti na lipyate.

Prabhupada: Yes. Here is the… Sarira-stho ‘pi. Because it is said Paramatma and jivatma, they are, both of them are in this body, that does not mean the Paramatma has become like jivatma. Or jivatma has become Paramatma. This is nonsense. Although sarira-stha, he doesn’t, he’s not affected by the pains and pleasures of this body. That, that is, that is the defect of this daridra-narayana philosophy, that although He has entered the body of a daridra, it does not mean He’s affected by the quality of the daridra. But they are thinking, “Oh, Narayana has come as daridra. Let me give something.” This is their philosophy. That means Narayana is now affected with this daridrata. [break]

Dr. Patel: Annakuta (Gujarati) [break]

Prabhupada: …we do not feed anybody.

Dr. Patel: You may be feeding, but others are throwing it away. That is why they have said daridra-narayana.

Prabhupada: That is… Others are throwing, others are doing this, this… That is not considered.

Dr. Patel: But they have not seen you doing it, you see…

Prabhupada: Dari… Why not first of all offer to real Narayana and then distribute to the daridras? [break] First of all try to understand that… Just like we have got prasada distribution program. So… But that does not mean that we shall say, “We are feeding daridra-narayana.” We are offering to Narayana and then feeding to the…

Dr. Patel: They are… [break]

Prabhupada: No, no. You do not talk. You do not know. You do not know. Don’t talk. Please stop. I know very well, better than you.

Dr. Patel: How? Tell me. Explain.

Prabhupada: No, no. How you can know? You take it; because you do not know, you take it from me.

Dr. Patel: But I, I, I can’t take it without you explain me. How I take it? Tell me.

Prabhupada: That brain will require three hundred years. Your brain having developed, then you will understand.

Dr. Patel: I have developed, brain is already developed fifty… [break]

Prabhupada: (angrily) No, you said immediately What is the use of offering Narayana in the temple…”

Dr. Patel: I did not say that!

Prabhupada: Yes, you said.

Dr. Patel: I did… No, you have misunderstood! I said… I won’t submit to wrong things. I will submit to right thing!

Prabhupada: No, no. And that… But you do not know what is right thing. That is your fault.

Dr. Patel: Daridra-narayana is a fact. In India. And I am going to uphold it!

Prabhupada: Now, you see, you are prescribing that “Why they are offering in the temple?” “Why you are offering in the the temple? Why not the daridras?”

Dr. Patel: You must offer in the temple. [break]

Prabhupada: …does not mean his narayana-seva is null and void because he cannot distribute to the poor.

Dr. Patel: No, no, that I did not say.

Prabhupada: Try to understand first this!

Chandobhai: Ha, just, just be quiet.

Prabhupada: His narayana-seva is there.

Dr. Patel: I understand him.

Prabhupada: You will not allow anyone to speak. But you talk nonsense.

Dr. Patel: But you! You won’t…! You…!

Prabhupada: No, no! No, you try to understand! That because he cannot distribute food to others, that does not mean his narayana-seva is null and void.

Dr. Patel: I did not say that sir!

Prabhupada: Then why you are talking this?

Dr. Patel: I did not say that and you misunderstood me! That is where I am very… [break]

Prabhupada: …does it mean his narayana-seva is wrong?

Dr. Patel: I don’t say that narayana-seva is wrong!

Prabhupada: Then it is all right.

Dr. Patel: I did not say that. [break] …should be given to the people who need it.

Prabhupada: No, that is your prescription. But annakuta, when the annakuta is there, the prasada is there, either you eat or I eat, it doesn’t matter.

Dr. Patel: It should be given… [break]

Prabhupada: …attitude. You want to dictate to everyone, although you do not know anything.

Dr. Patel: But you…

Prabhupada: Yes! That is your… Now, you see, understand.

Dr. Patel: I understand…

Prabhupada: He has performed the annakuta ceremony. Either you eat or I eat, where is the difference?

Dr. Patel: Great difference. [break] …what way?

Prabhupada: Because you do not take prasadam, therefore you are not devotee.

Dr. Patel: You… I take this much prasadam. They need that much prasada. That is what I mean to say otherwise.

Prabhupada: No, no, you cannot dictate. Prasada, prasada, prasada will be distributed without discrimination.

Dr. Patel: Say you are hungry…

Dr. Shah: No, he’s saying the same thing. He says without discrimination it is… [break] …prasadam is…

Prabhupada: Everyone is poor!

Dr. Patel: Everyone is poor before God…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: …but those people who are hungry…

Prabhupada: But why you dictate?

Dr. Shah: That’s a different thing.

Prabhupada: That is…

Dr. Patel: I don’t dictate!

Prabhupada: Yes. You say that it should be given to the poor man. You say like that. [break] The spiritual food should be distributed to everyone, without any discrimination.

Dr. Shah: To everyone, without any discrimination! [break]

Prabhupada: It is meant for spiritual understanding.

Dr. Patel: That’s right. That I agree.

Prabhupada: Prasade sarva-duhkhanam hanir asyopajayate. So anyone who is spiritually poor, he should be given prasadam. It doesn’t matter… [break] That, that makes it clear. Samah sarvesu bhutesu means there is no discrimination… (end)