Prabhupada:We say jaysam pakse janardana. Jaysam pakse janardana.(?) “All glories to the party who side Janardana is there.” Jaysam pakse janardana.(?)

Devotee: Pakse, pakse janardana.

Prabhupada: Pandu-putranam jaysam pakse janardana. Pandu-putra, the Pandavas, are glorified because on their side, Krsna is there. Therefore, victory for them. One very big doctor of Allahabad, my old friend, Dr. G. Bose, he is also D.T.M., M.A.B. He wants to join this movement.

Dr. Patel: Haribol. There is one doctor, he’ll look to the health and hygiene of the inmates.

Prabhupada: Why not yourself?

Dr. Patel: …on that point I’m going to (indistinct).

Prabhupada: These rascals, asuras, they do not know what is the goal of life. But in which way we should direct? These rascals, they do not know. Still, they become public leaders, asuras. Na viduh. How to dissuade people to stop this? Just like we are doing: no illicit sex. Nivrtti. Nivrtti. No illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating. This is nivrtti. And pravrtti, take to Krsna. This is pravrtti, nivrtti. But the rascal demons, leaders, they do not know these things. Pravrttim ca nivrttim ca na viduh asura-jana [Bg. 16.7]. They do not know it. Still, they become leaders. They do not know in which way people should be directed, and still they claim to be public leaders.

Indian man: Na acaro na satyam te suddha vidyate.

Prabhupada: Na acarah. Personally they also do not do anything, ah? They’re addict, they addict to drinking, addict to prostitution, and they, by votes, they become leaders. So how people will be happy? Asura-jana. They live by asura-jana. This is the whole chapter of Bhagavad-gita. They, they are making their plan. What is their plan-making? Idam adya maya labdham imam prapsye manoratham. This is the only plan. “Now I have got this bank balance, and tomorrow further increase, and tomorrow increase.” Increase, increase, his life decreased, and kicked out of this…

Indian man (2): That plan becomes out of date next year.

Prabhupada: Ah? (laughs) Yes. That “He’s my enemy, he’s my friend. I’ll kill so many enemies. Now one enemy is still there… Who is richer than me? Who is wiser than me?” These are the plans of the asura-jana.

Indian man (3): (Sanskrit) Sadrso maya.

Prabhupada: Sadrso maya. Yes. “I’ll protect my money in this way. I shall keep money in this way so that my sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons will enjoy. And I am going to become a cat and dog, doesn’t matter. (everyone laughs) My grandson will enjoy.” These are the plans. Where this rascal is going, he has no information. He has no information where he is going, but he is making provisions for his great-grandson. He does not know who is coming to be his great-grandson. This is asura program. You ask these asuras that “If you do not believe in the next life, then why you are working so hard?” They reply, “For the next generation.” Next generation. And if you do not believe in the next life, what is the meaning of next generation? They say like that. This is the asuric civilization. (Sanskrit) So…

Indian man (2): Asurim…

Prabhupada: Punar janmani. They’ll never be able to understand what is Krsna. Bhagavan mate. They’ll never be able to understand. And remain in darkness, and transmigrate from one body to another, and this business will go on.

Indian man (2): But then how will they come up?

Prabhupada: When they tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. When they come to the stage to understand things by surrendering. But they will never surrender. That is their business. Ah?

Indian man (4): But the Lord uses a heavy stick, then they’ll surrender.

Prabhupada: They are surrendered. They are being kicked by maya at every moment, but because they are fools, they say “I’m not surrendered.” This is… In Bengali is called vihvala. Vihvala.(?) No, no… Shameless. He’s being kicked every moment, but he’s so shameless, that he’s declared, “I’m independent, I’m independent.” Shameless. (Bengali)

Indian man (3): Just like these dogs around us…

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. This is the position of the asuras. This is the characteristic of the asura. They are under stringent laws of nature, being kicked every moment, and still is declaring, “There is no God, I’m independent. I’m independent.” Every moment he’s dying, and still he thinks, “I shall live forever.” This is asura. Pravrttim ca, nivrttim ca [Bg. 16.7]. So this is required. Pravrtti and nivrtti, to know.

Indian man (4): What is pravrtti?

Prabhupada: Pravrtti means inclination for doing something. That is called pravrtti.

Indian man (4): Nivrtti means…?

Prabhupada: Nivrtti means to stop. Pravrttir esa bhutanam nivrttis tu maha-phalam.

Indian man (4): Nivrtti…?

Prabhupada: Nivrttis tu maha-phalam. Here, at the present moment… Not at the present moment, always in the material world, the desire is that “I shall become the greatest enjoyer. I shall become king, I shall become minister… And at last I shall become God.” (laughter) You see? So this the false pravrtti. And one who can cut down this rascal propensity, he’s successful. But I’m neither king, neither a minister, neither I’m going to become God. I’m a tiny living entity, being kicked by the maya, like football. When he comes to this understanding, he is in knowledge.

Indian man (4): (Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: Yes. But he is so shameless than in spite of being kicked like that, always, he’s thinking, “I’m God, I’m independent, I can do anything,” like that. This is asura. Asuram bhavam asritah. Ah?

Indian man: Asuram bhavam asritah.


na mam duskrtino mudhah

prapadyante naradhamah


asuram bhavam asritah

[Bg. 7.15]

Because they’ve taken to this asuric principle, they do not surrender. This is the disease, material disease. Here is Krsna, the perfect leader, and they’re going this side, that leader, that leader, that leader. Why? The perfect leader is there, His instruction is there, in all fields of life, any field of life. And ultimately spiritual realization. But they will not take it. They’ll not take. Hare Krsna. [break] Where is your book? You can read.

Indian man (3): Oh, he forgot, and I brought another book. I brought that Siksha-vadri.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Indian man (3): There is the name of Krsna in every page. I told you the other day. It’s a quota pandita for all Vaisnavas.

Prabhupada: Read something.

Indian man (3): I’ll read the beginning, and then from the middle. (reads slokas) That is the beginning, and how it goes, then…

Prabhupada: So why did that person say that Janardan Swami Narayan is the topmost?

Indian man (2): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: No, that Buddhism. That is not Vaisnavism.

Indian man (2): (indistinct) stop them, what he said, (Sanskrit).

Prabhupada: That is Buddhism.

Indian man (2): But he’s not Buddhist, he’s Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: But he’s taking the Buddhist philosophy.

Indian man (2): He’s not taking the Buddhist philosophy. In what way he has?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, because in the sastra, in the Vedas, it is stated that, sometimes it is recommended animal sacrifice.

Indian man (2): He did not want to…

Prabhupada: No, no, he says, even if he stated…

Indian man (2): Should not take it.

Prabhupada: No, that means he’s denying the authority of Vedas.

Indian man (2): He’s denying the authority of Vaisnava…

Prabhupada: No, no, Vaisnava does not say…

Indian man (2): He denied the authority of Buddhist, and not Vedas, see what he says…

Prabhupada: No, no, no, you read it.

Indian man (2): Na vaksyam sarva-tamasam yajna-sistam abhipacchet.(?)

Prabhupada: Ah! Even it is yajna-sistam…

Indian man (2): Then also you should not eat.

Prabhupada: No.

Indian man (2): You should not eat.

Prabhupada: No!

Indian man (2): That is what it says.

Prabhupada: That is means denying the authority of Vedas. Vedas say you can eat meat after yajna.

Indian man (2): But he says no, you should not eat.

Prabhupada: But therefore he’s denying the authority of Vedas.

Indian man (2): You should, you should not eat meat even Veda says.

Prabhupada: Yes, therefore he’s denying.

Indian man (2): Yes, but doesn’t matter. I don’t want to eat meat even the way… Even if you sacrifice a goat here and offer…

Prabhupada: You cannot…

Indian man (2): Na caiva…

Prabhupada: …deny the authority of Vedas.

Indian man (3): Vedas…

Prabhupada: You may not eat, that is a different thing. But the Vedic authority… Just like, suppose the law says, “This man should be hanged.” If you say, “No, even if he is criminal, he should not be hanged,” that means denying the authority of law. You cannot say this.

Indian man (4): That’s right. All right.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (2): So you must eat their meat if it is…

Prabhupada: No, no, no… You should not eat.

Indian man (2): That is what he says…

Prabhupada: That’s… You see? He does not know what is the scheme of Vedas. You cannot stop meat-eating all of a sudden. But you can raise some restriction. These rascals who are meat-eaters, if you say, “Don’t eat meat,” he’ll never do that. Therefore, “Yes, you can eat meat, just after offering to the goddess Kali,” and in this way, that means, once in the month, that means restricted. Restricted. So, Vedas means they’re taking gradually, not that, like a foolish, “You don’t do this.” You cannot do that. That is Vedic authority. The Vedas are meant for everyone. Those who are meat-eaters, you cannot stop them all of a sudden. Similarly, drunkards. You cannot stop them, drunkards, “Don’t drink.” They’ll not hear you. Therefore restriction. “Yes, you can drink, after offering to the devi,” and that means restriction. So what is the meaning of marriage? Because sex like the cats and dogs, stop it. Just get married. In this way, otherwise, you may say “No marriage.” Just like, the other day these sannyasis come, because saw woman was sitting, they’ll not enter. But I saw their teeth was so unclean, and the dress was never washed. But they have got this restriction, no seeing of woman.

Indian man (3): (Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: You cannot deny the authority of Vedas. Suppose you are following ahimsa, you cannot say that “State should not anymore hang anybody.” That you cannot say. You follow.

Indian man (3): Shall I read it?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (3): Vabhicaro na kartavyah pumvi stri…(?)

Prabhupada: Now, my point is that Buddhism was rejected from India because he’s decried the authority of Vedas.

Indian man (3): So this fellow also will be rejected.

Prabhupada: That… Yes, immediately. Because he does not accept the authority of Vedas. That is real knowledge. Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam Yes, yajna, I mean to say, criticize the yajna-vidhi. Yajna-vidhi you cannot criticize. Yajnarthat karmano ‘nyatra loko ‘yam karma-bandhanah [Bg. 3.9]. Karma-bandhana. So yajna must go on, and the vidhi must be followed. That is real acceptance of Vedic knowledge. If you manufacture your own concoction, “This is good, this is bad,” that will not help you.

Indian man (3): Vetas pi pavitranam svadhinam ca tasam api, vedanam ca na kartavyam nindha saddhya…(?)

Prabhupada: But why he’s making ninda? You don’t eat, even it is… Now in the first you said, you don’t…, you cannot kill animal, even if it is…

Indian man (3): I, I follow even though you said that you kill it for the sake of yajna, I am not going to kill it, that’s all. That is my personal…

Prabhupada: No, no. That you can do. But you cannot decry the Vedic laws.

Indian man (2): This is not decrying the Vedic law…

Prabhupada: Yes, yes… You said, api, even if it is enjoined in the Vedas…

Indian man (2): I don’t think so.

Prabhupada: Why not? It is clear, it is clear. You don’t think, but the writing is there.

Indian man (3): The writing…

Prabhupada: Writing is there.

Indian man (3): The writing can be interpreted in a lot of ways.

Prabhupada: No, no, no, no! You can interpret. No, no, no, no. We are not interpreting.

Indian man (3): We are not going to take that way.

Prabhupada: We cannot… As soon as you say api, even if it is enjoined in the Vedas, don’t do it. That means decrying the Vedas. What do you think?

Indian man (2): You want us to eat meat by saying that the Vaisnavas…, we won’t do it.

Prabhupada: The Vaisnava is forbidden.

Indian man (2): But then, this is a Vaisnava way, forbidden to eat the meat.

Prabhupada: That’s all right. But therefore you cannot decry the Vedas.

Indian man (4): But this is not Veda, you see? If you kill an animal and sacrifice in the way of…

Prabhupada: That is Vedic injunction. Sacrifice is done…

Indian man (4): This is tantra, not Veda. Vedas don’t want. And there used to be animal living again after killing it…

Prabhupada: No, no.

Indian man (4): Are you able to do it?

Prabhupada: No, no.

Indian man (4): So this is tantra. He wants to decry the tantra, not Vedas.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Indian man (4): By tantra they’re verily killing animals to eat them away for the pleasure of their teeth, for the pleasure of the tongue.

Prabhupada: Tantra, tantra… I do not know what kind of tantra…

Dr. Patel: …does not believe in killing animal and eating it even… Vedas say you can eat, I will not. And I don’t mind decrying the Vedas that way, if you say so, sir. (indistinct) Vaisnava, I don’t think I can allow anyone to be killed. I’m very sorry to say this.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Dr. Patel: If the Vedas say “Kill,” I won’t. I won’t, don’t want that.

Prabhupada: That is Buddhism.

Dr. Patel: I don’t mind you call me a Buddhist or a fool, but I won’t kill an animal, being a Vaisnava myself.

Prabhupada: That’s all right, but the thing is that you may not like something, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas.

Dr. Patel: This is not decrying the authority of Vedas.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: …excuse me, I will bring the Vedas before you. I have studied.

Prabhupada: You can manufacture your own way…

Dr. Patel: I’m not manufacturing, I’m not manufacturing. Nowhere Veda say you kill the animals, and eat them away. They, our forefathers were so clever as to kill them and bring them living again.

Prabhupada: Every sacrifice, every sacrifice there is written in injunction of Vedic…

Dr. Patel: Sacrificing means you’re sacrificing your own…

Prabhupada: You may mean something, but actually, that is not the meaning. That is the difference. You may mean something. The point is that you may follow. In the Vedas there are different ways, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas. That is the point.

Dr. Patel: The ideal Vaisnava will not say this. The ideal Vaisnava. Even Vedas say to kill an animal anytime, I won’t. I won’t kill it, I won’t eat it. I’ll not eat even in England as a student of London University-meat.

Prabhupada: I’m recommending you to eat meat?

Dr. Patel: No, you eat the…, indirectly so.

Prabhupada: All right.

Dr. Patel: I’m very sorry.

Prabhupada: It is very difficult to talk with you. Therefore you cannot take any lesson.

Dr. Patel: No, I’m not taking this lesson, going to kill an animal to eat it. That lesson in no way I will take.

Prabhupada: That is meant for others!

Dr. Patel: Accha! Not for me.

Prabhupada: All right.

Dr. Patel: Otherwise, as a Vaisnava you can’t…

Prabhupada: I don’t say that Vaisnava. Why I’ll say? Why you talk like that?

Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Swamiji told his disciples not to take meat.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (3): (Hindi)

Indian man (2): No.

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) …allow.

Indians: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Allowed for the rascals and fools.

Dr. Patel: Fools, but we are not rascals. So he…

Prabhupada: You cannot reject the rascals and fools. That is the way.

Dr. Patel: But he is rejecting rascals and fools.

Prabhupada: Gradually, gradually. Just like…

Dr. Patel: As a Vaisnava we can’t tolerate meat.

Prabhupada: That is all right, but…

Dr. Patel: I can…

Prabhupada: …you cannot…

Dr. Patel: …not mix it. They go, sometimes, and feed (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Even they go, that does not mean they’re going to kill animal.

Dr. Patel: But suppose an animal is killed and prasada is offered, they won’t take it.

Prabhupada: No, no, yes.

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that is what it says, “Don’t take this prasada even if it is offered.”

Prabhupada: But I cannot say to stop animal sacrifice before the deity Goddess Kali. That I cannot say. I cannot disobey. I may not take it.

Dr. Patel: That is what he means to say, but…

Prabhupada: But you cannot say that I reject…

Dr. Patel: “My followers do not take meat even kali-yajna.”

Prabhupada: You cannot dictate on the Vedic authority. Veda…

Dr. Patel: Kali temple, Kali temple is not Vedic, but it is Tantric, Tantric.

Prabhupada: That you say, that you say. Not tantra. Tantra is also within the Vedas. Just like we have got Narada-pancaratra.

Dr. Patel: That’s right, but we are following Narada-pancaratra, aren’t we?

Prabhupada: Tantra.

Dr. Patel: All of us. All Vaisnavas in India, Narada-pancaratra is very pivot around which we all live on.

Prabhupada: We are not advocating meat eating. You do not understand. We are saying that even if you don’t eat meat, you cannot decry the arrangement in the Vedas. That you cannot do.

Indian man (3): But this is not Vedic, eh…

Prabhupada: This is Vedic!

Indian man (3): …that you can…

Prabhupada: In the yajna, not that all yajna. But in the… Some yajnas, there is recommendation. It is stated in Bhagavad-gita, yajna-sistasinah santo mucyante sarva-kilbisaih.

Dr. Patel: Yajna-sista asinah. Not meat.

Prabhupada: Yes. Asinah.

Indian man (3): …mucyante sarva-kilbisaih.

Prabhupada: So this position is there. Those who are rascals and rogues will meat eat.

Dr. Patel: But we are not rascals and rogues.

Prabhupada: No, no, those who will eat meat, to bring them gradually to the platform of perfection. That is allowed.

Dr. Patel: We are a Vaisnava…, as Vaisnavas we are not allowed to do this.

Prabhupada: You cannot stop that. Suppose you…, there are so many nonviolence philosophies, Buddha, Jains, but have they been able to stop this meat-eating?

Dr. Patel: The Vaisnavas, they are to only perform those yajnas called…

Prabhupada: Yajnas for satisfaction of Visnu.

Indian man (3): And that, that is also… Visnu-yajna is there, there is no sacrifice of animals.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, you do not know, there is.

Indian man (4): Yajna is not necessary at all.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (4): Yajna is only for getting, to gain certain aims.

Prabhupada: In the Bhagavatam you’ll find the daksa-yajna, daksa-yajna. Daksa-yajna. There was a goat, and that goat was cut and it was added to the head of Daksa Maharaja.

Indian man (4): Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. It is described in the Bhagavatam.

Indian man (4): Yajnas are only done for certain aims actually, and are not required at all.

Prabhupada: Our philosophy is yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasah [SB 11.5.32]. That is our…

Indian man (4): The sankirtana be our yajna.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] It is stated in the sastra, yajnaih sankirtana-prayaih. Kalau, in this age…

Indian man (3): Why discuss these things for others? We are not meat-eaters, nor we do… (laughs)

Prabhupada: He’s going in a different way.

Indian man (3): As a Vaisnava. No, that is what I’m…

Prabhupada: No, you do not understand, that is the defect…

Indian man (3): That is my misfortune, that is my misfortune because I am a little fixed-cult man. But then you explain me what I should behave.

Prabhupada: Suppose you don’t believe in meat-eating, can you stop?

Indian man (3): I don’t want to stop. For your followers yes, you say don’t eat meat.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (3): Like that he has told us, “Don’t eat meat.”

Prabhupada: That’s all right.

Indian man (3): You don’t want to eat, do yajna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (3): So don’t call it Buddhist.

Prabhupada: But that doesn’t… No, this is Buddhist philosophy; you do not know it.

Indian man (3): I’m not talking about Vaisnava philosophy and Buddhist…

Prabhupada: This is Buddhist philosophy. That even if the Buddha, Lord Buddha said, “Even if it is recommended in the Vedas, I don’t accept Vedas.” That is Buddhist philosophy.

Indian man (4): He accepts Veda. He said the next moment. Now we read it, I’ve read it before you.

Prabhupada: You’ll see, it is stated, nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam. Sruti-jatam is the Vedas. There is recommendation of sacrifice, but you have decried them.

Indian man (4): He has not decried them. Devatam, devata te ta vi pranam sadvinam ca satam api, vedanam ca na kartavyam ninda svadya na ca tapi.(?)

Prabhupada: Hm. So this is ninda. If you say, “Even if it is recommended in the Vedas,” that is ninda. If you say, “Even if it is recommended by the Vedas,” that means Vedas are mistaken. You are right. You do not know what is the purpose of Vedas.

Indian man (4): What is the purpose of Vedas?

Prabhupada: The purpose is gradually to bring them…

Indian man (4): But he…

Prabhupada: …not that all of a sudden that you say “No, you cannot eat.”

Indian man (4): He…, all of a sudden he talks about Vaisnavas who are above all these low-class fellows. Vaisnavas are much above all those meat-eaters, then who is instructing the Vaisnavas?

Prabhupada: Vaisnavas should go to sacrifice. (Hindi)

Indian man (3): There is no… Hindu, aren’t the Hindus…

Prabhupada: No, no, no. You are mixing the Hindu, Muslim, and Vaisnava…

Indian man (3): I don’t think I am so fool like that, to mix up Hinduism with Buddhism. I think you have little be…

Prabhupada: But you don’t hear me, that is the difference.

Indian man (3): I’m hearing you perfectly well, but I’m very quick to grasp it, that is the misfortune of me.

Prabhupada: You are quick to deviate, that is the point. You do not hear.

Indian man (3): How can you… (laughs) How can you say I’m in…

Prabhupada: That is the… That is your alpa-medhasah. You cannot understand. What I’m speaking you do not understand.

Indian man (3): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: He… That example I’m giving, that the law is that the murderer should be hanged. If you fight, “I don’t care for this law, because you are hanging one person,” that will be contempt of court. You may not like, but the law is there. You cannot condemn the law. That is my point. That is my point.

Indian man (4): My point is no meat-eating by Vaisnavas.

Prabhupada: You, you… You do not like that anyone should be condemned to death…

Dr. Patel: That, that’s all right.

Prabhupada: …but for that reason you cannot condemn the law.

Indian man (3): But he’s not condemning the law. He said, “Don’t make the yajna.” He said, “Make the yajna but don’t eat the meat.” That is not condemning the law.

Prabhupada: All right. [break] You cannot say the law is only for the Vaisnava.

Dr. Patel: He does not say that don’t… [break] Nonkilling and not…

Prabhupada: You are mistaken there.

Dr. Patel: I’m not mistaken. I don’t think I’m such a fool as that.

Prabhupada: You’re mistaken there, that this yajna is meant for other person, not for you.

Dr. Patel: That is why I say that we are not preventing them to do the yajna, but we are not…

Prabhupada: You cannot surrender.

Dr. Patel: That is we are not asking them to break the law.

Prabhupada: That is his preventing, that even it is recommended…

Dr. Patel: He’s not preventing his followers not to eat meat. Isn’t it? I think, I have not…

Indian man (3): Then it is all right. So I’m all right.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] …to go and worship any other demigod. Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah prapadyante ‘nya-devatah [Bg. 7.20]. They are not going to worship. They can offer respect to the demigods, but that is not they’re going to worship. Therefore Krsna says mam ekam.

Dr. Patel: Saranam vraja.

Prabhupada: We are simply…

Dr. Patel: We say the same thing in our…

Prabhupada: Mam ekam. Only Krsna.

Dr. Patel: So asrama varnasrama dharmo… Carvaka says.

Prabhupada: Somebody is bigger than Krsna. Then what you’ll do?

Dr. Patel: They’re going, “All right, you can talk anything nonsense.” It is nonsense, “You are a fool and a rascal, and a rogue and what you are calling so many words.” He is that. And they believe him, that’s all.

Prabhupada: He yesterday talked like that.

Dr. Patel: Then… Then believe it!

Indian man (2): They say they’re…, Krsna is incarnation of Swami Narayan.

Prabhupada: Yeah, they talk like that.

Dr. Patel: No, I don’t think, they are not, they are small boys.

Prabhupada: Whatever they may be, they, representative of the Swami Narayan, they said.

Dr. Patel: They have not represented the real thing…

Prabhupada: “Swami Narayan is more than Krsna.”

Dr. Patel: Tomorrow these boys say you are more than Krsna, then…

Prabhupada: That’s all right, they came to talk with me, representing Swami Narayan.

Dr. Patel: I represent Swami Narayan. Let us talk.

Prabhupada: It is difficult to do it. You say something, he says something…

Dr. Patel: He’s wrong… What Swami Narayan has written is right or wrong. That is his own handwriting. His own writing. Krsna… [break] That is the injunction. Those fools are right or I am right?

Prabhupada: Avaisnava muhur jnena puta harir gatam. (?)

Dr. Patel: Mm, that’s it.

Prabhupada: Sravanam na kartavyam. (?)

Dr. Patel: Sravanam, same thing. Don’t hear anything we…

Prabhupada: A Vaisnava does not like to kill, but Krsna Himself killed so many demons.

Indian man (3): But Krsna has got the right to kill. (everyone laughs)

Prabhupada: He induced Arjuna to kill, His devotee.

Indian man (2): He was the main killer in that…, on the background.

Prabhupada: Do you think that killing is bad?

Indian man (2): No, no, no… Yes. Whatever Krsna says is right, and whatever we say is wrong. We say kill the animal is wrong. Krsna says kill the animal is right. Okay?

Prabhupada: No, Krsna, I mean to say, do you mean to say killing an animal is bad, and killing a man is not bad?

Indian man (2): No, if Krsna says, “Kill the man, kill this man,” then it’s right. If I say “Kill this man,” is wrong.

Prabhupada: I mean, Krsna killed some animals, also.

Indian man (2): Then it is right. Whatever Krsna does is right, because He has the power to create, I know.

Prabhupada: That’s right, that’s all right.

Indian man (2): There is nothing that’s killed. What is killed? Kill is body, atma is sanatana.

Prabhupada: You abide by the order of Krsna.

Indian man (2): That is what we are abiding, but that is…

Prabhupada: Not killing and not killing.

Dr. Patel: That is what I say.

Prabhupada: These are material conceptions. If Krsna says, “You kill,” you should kill.

Dr. Patel: Shall I read this? Krsna krsnavatara…

Prabhupada: Sastra can say…

Dr. Patel: Some nonsense sastras are there, who can say…

Prabhupada: But that is not sastra. Why you are accepting that sastra? (laughter) He’s nonsense. If he accepts something nonsense sastra, he becomes nonsense. Our plea is let us learn from the standard book, Bhagavad-gita, and study, not bring anything else. That will give us proper guidance.

Dr. Patel: [break] …that is completely verse.

Prabhupada: No, no, I said that in the Vedas there are so many injunctions for different men, because the population, the sattva, rajo, tamo-guna, some of them are sudras, some of them are ksatriyas, some of them are vaisyas, some of them are brahmana; therefore different ways of inducing them is there. But because something is there for inducing the sudras in the Vedas, you cannot say, “No, this is not required.” That is also required, for the sudras, not for you.

Indian man (4): No, but then he…

Prabhupada: Yes. Vedas means helping everyone. Traigunya-visaya vedah. Traigunya-visaya vedah.

Indian man (3): It is the maya.

Prabhupada: By killing, yes. Nistraigunyo bhavarjuna. Your aim should be to go above this qualities of material.

Indian man (4): That is what he wants.

Prabhupada: But Vedas are describing… When Vedas are describing something for the benefit of the sudras, because it is meant for the sudras, you cannot condemn it.

Dr. Patel: But then you should not take part in it.

Prabhupada: No, no, that is all right. My point is that something is meant for the sudras.

Dr. Patel: No that’s right, but he has not condemned the yajna, he has made the injunction that you must not take part…

Prabhupada: That’s right… Just like in a drug shop, there are… (aside:) Hare Krsna. There are many kinds of drugs. So something is not meant for a certain patient. But he cannot say, “I don’t like this drug.”

Dr. Patel: Right. (Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: That is also drug…

Dr. Patel: Right.

Prabhupada: For certain persons, for a certain patient.

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: But maybe it was being done by somebody.

Indian man (3): They must be… In those days… Those were the departurous(?) days when he was born.

Prabhupada: This thing is being done, I know, in a big temple in Mathura. When there is big crowd, they put off the electric, and the rascal goes within the woman. I know that. In Varanasi also, in Visvanatha Temple. They do like this.

Indian man (4): I know, I have seen. That is why this injunction… So now you are satisfied that these injunctions are right.

Prabhupada: No, you… My point was that because something is not meant for me, and it is in the law…

Dr. Patel: We don’t want to proscribe it, we want to… That is what he meant. My followers, Vaisnavas, will not partake into such things. Let others do what they do.

Prabhupada: Yes, that’s it.

Dr. Patel: But then you became fiery.

Prabhupada: No, we can preach… No, my point was that because it is not applicable to me, I shall condemn.

Dr. Patel: That you don’t eat, that’s not condemning. Let them go and do their own… [break].

Prabhupada: In the lower status, so they require.

Dr. Patel: So, but you are also as weak as I am, both of us, so we… Accha. (laughs)

Indian man (3): They are wrong, but you are… We are reading what he has written.

Prabhupada: “Swami Narayan is better than Krsna.”

Indian man (4): No, no, that is wrong. That is… You, tomorrow you will say, “He was fool” Suppose these boys tomorrow say…

Indian man (3): I’m representing also, he also represents, we both have… We are Vaisnavas bhaktas.

Prabhupada: He accepted that…(laughs)

Indian man (4): No, he’s wrong, because he has not studied. I have studied.

Prabhupada: Your representative yesterday told me something different.

Indian man (4): They are boys.

Prabhupada: What they said?

Indian man (2): We are not perfect as disciple…

Prabhupada: (indistinct) This type of murti.

Indian man (2): (Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: (aside:) Hare Krsna. [break] …the other day that this Swami Narayan, not Hare Krsna.

Indian man (4): Because tomorrow we’ll say Prabhupada. That we are teaching, but he died very early. He died at the age of forty-eight years.

Prabhupada: That means that his followers are not well-conversant.

Indian man (3): Those who are not following the (indistinct).

Indian man (4): But then he was actually living. What type of…

Devotee: In England also they are chanting “Swami Narayan,” not about Krsna.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Indian man (3): No, they are also krsna-bhaktas.

Devotee: How they are they chanting Swami Narayan’s?

Indian man (3): They actually work for the Krsna only, and they…

Prabhupada: No, no, Krsna recommends sastra, harer nama, harer nama, harer namaiva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. So why they should chant “Swami Narayan”?

Indian man (4): No, listen…

Devotee: He says to chant Krsna. But they are chanting Swami Narayan.

Prabhupada: You know, there was a big doctor in Calcutta, (indistinct) Sen. You have heard his name? He will die of thirstiness, still would not drink outside water. Would come home, offer to the Deity, and then drink. I know that (indistinct) Sen.

Indian man (3): But he is such a…

Prabhupada: In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14] — Krsna. But why one should chant the other name? Krsna says satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14]. Hare Krsna. Not any other name.

Indian man (3): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: But their teacher, they’re chanting “Swami Narayan.” They’re saying Swami Narayan is better than Krsna. What kind of preaching is this?

Indian man (4): This is… [break]

Prabhupada: …nonsense this (Bengali). The people will go to the temple. If they say, if the preacher say that Swami Narayan name should be chanted…

Indian man (4): This is directly (indistinct) Swami Narayan.

Prabhupada: “Swami Narayan is better than Krsna,” then what they learn?

Indian man: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: In London they have got a branch, and they’re chanting….

Indian man: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Swami Narayan. That is my objection. Why they are putting…

Indian man (2): “Swami Narayan, Swami Narayan, Swami Narayan.” (laughs)

Prabhupada: What is this thing? “Swami Narayan.” Narayana is there.

Indian man (4): Narayana is there.

Indian man (2): Swami is their guru and Narayana is God, so both, Prabhupada and Krsna, Prabhupada and Krsna, Prabhupada Krsna…

Prabhupada: But that does not mean they should chant. Just like, we are not instructing our disciples to chant my name, “Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami…” No. They’re chanting Hare Krsna. Hari-tvena samasta-sastrair uktah. Guru is respected as good as Krsna, but that does not mean I shall teach them to go and chant my name, “Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami.” What is this?

We are teaching, “Chant Hare Krsna.” Harer nama, harer nama… [Cc. Adi 17.21].

Indian man (3): Prabhupada so much…

Prabhupada: Because he, my disciple respects me as God, that does not mean I’ll think I have become God.

Indians: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Hold some meeting, and you are belonging to the, you asked them, “Why you say like this?”

Indian man (4): We are… here I represent them, and you represent…

Prabhupada: No, they’re preaching.

Indian man (4): Both are Vaisnavas…

Prabhupada: Just like these boys said.

Indian man (3): [break] …all difference here, and they have got no difference at all.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Indian man (3): I would not say that…

Prabhupada: I can understand that. That is not difficult.

Indian man (3): Ah?

Prabhupada: So only thing is that why they’re preaching against their own principle?

Indian man (4): Eka vasinam tapasa tapa ya bratah… (?)

Prabhupada: That is my point. That is my point. Everything is there for Krsna, but they’re chanting “Swami Narayan.” Why?

Indian man (4): There are… In Swami Narayan’s sampradaya there are…

Indian man (3): (indistinct) …you have to follow me.” (Indians laugh)

Prabhupada: So far we are concerned, Gaudiya Vaisnavas, there is no different conclusion. The conclusion is there. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28].

Indian man (4): That is the right. If you…

Prabhupada: That is wanted. They were saying they are sannyasi,…

Indian man (2): They say like that, but it is not…

Indian man (4): They were small boys, what will they know about it?

Prabhupada: But why they are…

Indian man (3): The boys are taught like this from…

Indian man (4): Those days you must follow.

Prabhupada: No, ramanandi, ramanandi(?)

Indian man (4): These are different.

Prabhupada: They say that they follow… [break] …impersonal.

Indian man (4): Now, he has given about how brahmanas should do — all this.

Prabhupada: Why you recommended Panca-upasana?

Indian man (4): I don’t understand that.

Prabhupada: That is the impersonalist.

Indian man (3): (indistinct) bhakti.

Indian man (4): I don’t know… Why…

Prabhupada: No, no, no, no…

Indian man (2): Pancaratra…

Prabhupada: Pancopasanam means that the Absolute Truth is impersonal. You can imagine as person like this. This is pancopasanam. Sadhu kanam hita taya brahmana rupa kalpana, kalpana.(?) “You just imagine one form.” But Vaisnava, he’s not like that. Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah.

Indian man (3): It says in the sastra, Veda ca rasa…

Prabhupada: When the question of sastra comes, shall I read Bhagavad-gita or this?

Indian man (4): All this things should be read together, because they are complimentary to each other. Everybody needs to…

Prabhupada: We have no time to read the complimentary…

Indian man (4): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: …then what he’ll read?

Indian man (4): Tatha srimad-bhagavad-gita iti.

Prabhupada: It is not possible that everyone has to read all the corollaries. The one, main… Bhagavad-gita you read and learn, that I am stressing. That I am stressing.

Indian man (2): That’s right.

Indian man (3): Perfectly right, but what I say what he has… Finer points.

Prabhupada: Now you say there are seven branches, and they’re preaching in a different way. So how people will understand…?

Indian man (3): Because then those people were reading all so many sastras he narrowed to five. He wanted the Veda you must read, Vyasa-sutra… [break]

Prabhupada: Beginning should be Bhagavad-gita. [break] Pancopasanam. Pancopasanam is not for the Vaisnava.

Indian man (4): Not pancopasa, Pancaratra.

Prabhupada: No, no, Panc… Pancaratra is all right. He has recommended the…

Indian man (4): Ganapati (indistinct)

Prabhupada (4): Ganapati… In the Bhagavad-gita it is not recommended. Mam ekam.

Indian man: Mam ekam saranam vraja.

Prabhupada: So, why (indistinct).

Indian man (4): Don’t say this kind of thing — “It is not recommended.”

Prabhupada: No, no, no.

Indian man (4): Condemning and not recommending is a different thing. It is not condemned.

Prabhupada: Avidhi-purvakam means condemned. You are doing…

Indian man (4): Sir, my point is this…

Prabhupada: No, no. Avidhi-purvakam, means… Vidhi-purvakam is right. And avidhi-purvakam is wrong. The same example. That one has to supply food to the mouth, and if one thinks “There are so many holes, any hole will do,” that is avidhi-purvakam. [break]…recommended that suppose Ganapati worship.

Indian man (4): He did not care much about…

Prabhupada: No. Much or less, that doesn’t… There is recommendation.

Indian man (3): Recommendation or not, bhakti like Krsna.

Indian man (4): You are not to do (indistinct).

Prabhupada: What does that mean? Read it again.

Indians: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes, mam ekam.

Indian man (4): You have come to our narrow path now. When people divide (indistinct). Because those days were different. When people were (indistinct) on stones.

Prabhupada: No, no, I cannot… A chaste woman, you cannot divide her. She must stick to one husband.

Indian man (4): No, in his time, people were Vaisnavas…

Prabhupada: You cannot, she cannot say, “I can accept as many husband as required.” That is not good.

Indian man (4): Two hundred years before. Two hundred years before. [break]

Prabhupada: …as you worship Durga, then you have to sacrifice goat.

Indian man (4): Ah?

Prabhupada: As soon as you worship Durga…

Indian man (4): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Whatever.

Indian man (4): Durga, Siva, Ganapati one family.

Prabhupada: So as soon as you worship Durga you have to follow the rules, you have to make goat sacrifice…

Indian man (4): No, no, no. (indistinct)

Prabhupada: In the Bhagavata it is recommended. In the Bhagavata it is recommended, that when Krsna is asking for Devi to go take birth in the womb of Yasoda, Krsna is inducing that He’ll get so many sacrifices. Yes. So that is the (Sanskrit), animal sacrifice.

Indian man (4): Therefore (Sanskrit) ah? Vairagyam neyem aprti sri krsna…(?) He is recommending the fools, the fools who have got no…

Prabhupada: (indistinct) advised to the fools, why the Vedas cannot?

Indian man (4): Vedas they have advised to the fools to (indistinct). But he has advised another fools not to eat it.

Prabhupada: Yes. When you worship Devi, you have to sacrifice goat, then what you will do?

Indian man (4): No, no. (Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: Where this… [break] (kirtana begins) (end)