Prabhupada: So this is the process. If you want to know God — Krsna means God — then this is the process. What is that? Mayy asakta.

Dr. Patel: Mayy asakta-manah.

Prabhupada: Mayy asakta.

Dr. Patel: Mayy asakta-manah partha…

Mr. Sar: Yogam yunjan mad-asrayah.

Prabhupada: This is yoga practice also. Yoga. Yoga means to concentrate the mind on a subject matter. So we should meditate upon Krsna. Mayy asakta. Then gradually you’ll increase your attachment for Krsna. And that is the perfection of life. The perfection of life, the symbol is in Vrndavana. Because all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, they were very, very, much attached to Krsna.

Mr. Sar: Attached to Krsna were.

Prabhupada: The cowherd boys, the girls, the elderly persons, the trees, the flowers, the land, the birds, the beasts, the cows-their center was Krsna. So we have to follow their footprints, how to… We have got already attachment.

Mr. Sar: Yes. Yogam yunjan mad-asrayah.

Prabhupada: No, attachment we have got for material things. That we have to transfer. This is yoga practice.

Mr. Sar: That is yoga practice. Correct.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yoga indriya-samyamah. Yoga, the… I think it is Patanjali sutra.

Guest (1): Yoga citta bhuti yoga. (?)

Prabhupada: Yes. Citta bhuti…

Guest (1): Yoga citta bhuti nirodha.

Prabhupada: Nirodha. So our activities are now materially centered — how to satisfy the senses. All these so-called improvements, material improvements, means how to satisfy the senses. So this asaktih, attachment, for material sense gratification…

Guest (2): Has to be transferred.

Prabhupada: To Krsna. Yes. Mayy asakta-manah partha. This is yoga. This is bhakti-yoga.

Mr. Sar: It is said, jnanam te sa-vijnanam.

Prabhupada: But it can be done mad-asrayah. Asrayah, to take shelter. “Taking shelter of Krsna,” you can make this meaning or mad-asrayah means “one who has taken shelter of Krsna.”

Mr. Sar: Krsna. Correct. Correct. That is correct.

Guest (1): Mad-asrayah means asrayah.

Prabhupada: Either you… Directly it is not possible to take shelter of Krsna. Therefore mad-asrayah means “one who has taken shelter of Me.” That is parampara system. You take shelter of Him. Then the result will be asamsayah.

Passerby: Hello.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Asamsayah means at the present moment…

Guest (1): Without any doubts.

Prabhupada: No… People are in doubt whether there is God, or “If there is God, He might have died by this time.” So there are so many… (laughs) Yes. When I first went to U.S.A., the theory was “God is dead.” But when I began to speak, they realized, “No, God is not dead. God is with Swamiji.” They wrote. They wrote articles. So asamsayam…

Mr. Sar: Samagram mam. From all aspects.

Prabhupada: From all aspects. Yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu. So Krsna is speaking about Himself. We can speculate about God. That way we’ll never be successful. Because we have got limited senses. Therefore you hear from Krsna about Krsna. This is called bhakti-yoga.

Mr. Sar: And He wants to tell the jnanam te ‘ham sa-vijnanam [Bg. 7.2]. “What I have realized, I tell you.”

Prabhupada: No, not realized!

Guest (1): Experienced.

Prabhupada: Sa-vijnanam, how it can be practically applied.

Mr. Sar: Yes, how it can be practically applied.

Prabhupada: Not that he has realized. He’s God. He’s already realized.

Guest (1): Sa-vijnanam means…

Dr. Patel: Matter of knowing, application.

Mr. Sar: Application.

Prabhupada: Practical.

Mr. Sar: Practical application.

Prabhupada: Just like practical science. If you want to pass B.A. examination, you have to appear for theoretical and practical, both.

Dr. Patel: Theory and practice both.

Prabhupada: Yes. So this bhakti-yoga means to know God, at the same time, practically employ yourself in the service of God, or in the transaction between God and yourself. That is vijnanam. Sa-vijnanam.

Guest (1): What is the distinction between jnana and vijnana?

Prabhupada: Jnana means theoretical knowledge, and vijnana means practical knowledge. Simply to know “God is great,” that is not sufficient.

Guest (1): No, that is theoretical.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is theoretical. You must know how great He is. That we have to learn from the sastras, from the guru, how great He is. Just like in the Brahma-samhita, Vedic, yato va imani bhutani jayante. He’s the source of all material elements. In Him everything stays, and after annihilation, everything goes into Him. This is one understanding. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13).

Mr. Sar: Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman.

Prabhupada: In this way, from Vedas, from guru, from saintly persons, we have to understand. Sadhu guru sastra vakya. Sadhu means who speaks strictly on the sastra. Guru also speaks strictly on sastra. Sastra is the medium. Yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karatah, na siddhim avapno… [Bg. 16.23]. Therefore we protest. Unless there is something mentioned in the authorized sastras we don’t accept it.

Guest (1): Is it nityah anityanam or nityah nityanam?

Prabhupada: Nityo nityanam. Plural number.

Dr. Patel: Plural, yes.

Guest (1): No, no, that’s right.

Prabhupada: Plural number.

Guest (1): Permanent. Permanent, impermanent.

Prabhupada: Both of them permanent. No, no, no. Permanent… The jivas and the Supreme Lord, both of them are permanent, nitya. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Just like nityah sasvato ‘yam. It is said in the Bhagavad-gita, nityah sasvato ‘yam. Eternal, always existing. And this material word has been described: asasvatah. Duhkhalayam asasvatah.

Dr. Patel: Asasvatam.

Prabhupada: Asas… It is not permanent. Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. It appears and disappears. So because nityo nityanam, there is transaction between the nitya, the Supreme Nitya, Krsna, and the…

Dr. Patel: Cetanas cetananam.

Prabhupada: And the subordinate nityas, the living entities. So there must be one place also where this transaction takes place. Because this is anitya. This material world is anitya. So how the transaction between the nitya and nityanam can take place? Because the place is anitya. Therefore there must be a place which is nitya. There must be place. That is Vaikuntha dhama, spiritual world. So by practicing bhakti-yoga scientifically, by practical understanding, practical application, yogam yunjan mad-asrayah, either at the shelter…

Mr. Sar: Anyaj jnatam neha bhuyo…

Prabhupada: Eh?

Mr. Sar: Anyaj jnatam avasisyate.

Prabhupada: Ah. Then anyaj jnatavyam. No. Then you become perfect. No more knowledge.

Mr. Sar: No more knowledge is required.

Prabhupada: Yes, knowledge is perfect.

Mr. Sar: Final

Prabhupada: Final, yes.

Prabhupada: Yasmin vijnate sarvam etam vijnatam bhavanti. This is also Upanisad. Yasmin vijnate. If you simply understand Krsna, then sarvam eva vijnatam bhavanti. Then you have got full knowledge. And that is also stated in the Fourth Chapter. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti… [Bg. 4.9]. He becomes immediately liberated. Simply if you understand Krsna, what is Krsna, tattvatah, in truth, then you are, your business is finished.

Mr. Sar: Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3].

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Yatatam api siddhanam kascin mam vetti tattvatah [Bg. 7.3].

Prabhupada: Yes, to understand Krsna is not so easy job. First of all, so many millions and millions of living entities are there. They are not interested. They are just like animals: “Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy.” Nobody’s interested what is the success of life, siddhi. They do not know. They think, “If I…” Now, especially in this age, if you can eat sumptuously then it is siddhi, all siddhi. Yes. Udaram bharita, svartham udaram bharita. That just we see people are so lazy. If they can eat their daily food some way or other, begging, borrowing and stealing, just like animals…

Dr. Patel: They have got udara-sisnu-parayanah.

Prabhupada: Parayanah. So they think, “Now my day’s business is finished. Now I have eaten.” And daksyam kutumba-bharanam. And if one man can maintain a family of four, five, men, “Oh, he’s Maharaja Daksa.” Maharaja Daksa, you know? He was a great personality. He was performing yajnas. So this is Kali-yuga. Even they will not be able to maintain a wife, a few children. There is no shelter. I have seen in, all these things in western countries. They have no fixed up. Just like animals. The animal also loitering in the street or in the jungle; they are loitering in a great jungle, a great city. That’s all.

Mr. Sar: Yatatam api siddhanam kascin mam vetti tattvatah [Bg. 7.3].

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore the Mayavadis cannot understand. Although they have come to the point of siddha, still they cannot understand. Yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3]. They are siddhas because they have understood that “I am not this body, aham brahmasmi.” This much they have understood. But still they cannot understand Krsna. Yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3]. Although they are trying…

Dr. Patel: Kascin mam vetti tattvatah.

Prabhupada: Ah, tattvatah. They do not know. They say,”Krsna is nirakara.” God is nirakara. “I am as good as God.” These theories, encumbrous theories… because they do not know. Yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3].

Dr. Patel: Kascin mam vetti…

Mr. Sar: Bhumir apo ‘nalo vayuh…

Prabhupada: So when one has come to this knowledge perfectly, that “I am not this body, I am spirit soul, aham brahmasmi,” that is brahma-bhuta stage. So, so after brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20] stage, there are so many other things. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati, samah sarvesu bhutesu [Bg. 18.54].

Dr. Patel: Samah sarvesu bhutesu.

Prabhupada: These bhutesu.

Mr. Sar: Mad-bhaktim labhate param.

Prabhupada: Then he comes to the bhakti-yoga. Not that only daridra-narayana-seva, not dhani-narayana-seva.

Dr. Patel: You came out with that.

Prabhupada: No, no that is, that is the deficiency. If daridra is Narayana, why not the dhani?

Dr. Patel: Again, we are not (indistinct).

Prabhupada: No, no, we have to accept. Samah sarvesu bhutesu. A devotee is equal. Either he’s daridra-narayana or dhani-narayana.

Mr. Sar: Dhani-narayana, yes.

Prabhupada: It is not that…

Mr. Sar: Both are equal.

Prabhupada: Both are equal.

Mr. Sar: Either poor or rich.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Devotee’s equal, whether poor or rich.

Prabhupada: That is samah sarvesu bhutesu. Why there should be distinction?

Mr. Sar:

bhumir apo ‘nalo vayuh

kham mano buddhir eva ca

ahankara itiyam me

bhinna prakrtir astadha

[Bg. 7.4]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Astadha, that’s the lower prakrti of God.

Prabhupada: Yes, so now the study, first study, begins from material point of view: Wherefrom the sky came? How the sky came into existence? First of all sky. Then, from sky, there is sound. Then, from sound there is air. From air, there is… Along with these creations… the sky creation means the air creation also, the reception of the sound. So in this way it is all described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam very nicely, how creation took place. Then, ultimately, we come to the land, where all the qualities of other elements are there. There is sound. There is touch. There is vision. There is smell. Everything is there. So… And the subtle matters. Mind, citta, intelligence, then buddh… intelligence. Then false ego. This is… At the present moment, everyone is thinking in the bodily concept of life: “I am American.” “I am Indian.” “I am brahmana.” “I am ksatriya.” This is false ego. He’s not, neither of them. Because he’s spirit soul, a different identity. So these, how the subtle mind, intelligence, are working, one should know. How transmigration of the soul takes place? By the action of mind, intelligence and ego. They do not know. There is no such science. There are so many universities all over the world. But who is studying all these things? The psychologists, they have studied a little more about thinking, feeling and willing. That’s all. But they do not know how he is working, how he is carrying the subtle soul to other body. That they do not know.

Mr. Sar: Apareyam itas tu…

Guest (2): Why do you not explain that?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (2): Why do you not explain that about subtle being carried forward?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is going to come now.

Prabhupada: Subtle body… Just like your body at night is on the bed, but you are carried by the thinking, feeling, intelligence to somewhere else. Is it not? So how are you are carried? You are actually lying on the bed. (aside:) Hare Krsna. It is carried by the subtle body. Similarly, death means that this body stops working. But the subtle mind… Exactly in the same way. Just as while you are sleeping this gross body has stopped to work, but the subtle body is working.

Dr. Patel: That is in, I mean, svapna.

Prabhupada: Svapna, yes.

Dr. Patel: But that does not work in deep sleep.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: In deep sleep it does not work, no?

Prabhupada: This sleep means temporary. Again the subtle mind, intelligence, come back. So death means no more coming back. It goes elsewhere. That is death. Is it clear? Eh?

Lilavati: How is it possible to forget?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Lilavati: The subtle body…

Prabhupada: Yes, you forget. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jayo. You forget. When you dream, you forget that you have got this gross body and you are the father of such and such or mother of such and such.

Dr. Patel: Because this is all due to mind only.

Prabhupada: Yes. The mind, mind forgets. The subtle body works. Similarly, we are dying daily. That is also death.

Dr. Patel: Nitya pralaya.

Prabhupada: Nitya pralaya. But… When… Now, because the body is fit, therefore we come again to enjoy with the body, ksetra. We come to the ksetra. Just like you are tilling some land, but when it becomes useless, you cannot till. You have to go elsewhere. Suppose it is overflooded. You cannot work there. Similarly, death means when the mind, intelligence, along with the soul, cannot work in this body, he has to go to some other body. Tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. Dehantara-praptih.

Dr. Patel: That is when the prarabdhah…

Prabhupada: Yes, that will be decided by the prarabdhah and everything. So in this way, death means this gross body, no more working. That’s all.

Dr. Patel: Subtle body lives always.

Prabhupada: No.

Dr. Patel: Till, till it is, I mean, liquidated from the maya’s clutches and…

Prabhupada: Yes. Till…

Dr. Patel: …comes into the Goloka with Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. The vita-raga. When you, when you are completely freed from all attachment of this material world, then tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9].

Dr. Patel: Mam eti.

Prabhupada: Mam eti.

Mr. Sar: Yada sarve prabhur jante kamani manah sasvatah.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then you do not come again. Mam eti. You go back to home, back to Godhead.

Mr. Sar: Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param, jiva-bhutam maha-baho… [Bg. 7.5].

Prabhupada: (Aside) Hare Krsna.

Mr. Sar: …yayedam dharyate jagat.

Prabhupada: Jaya.

Dr. Patel: That is consciousness, the consciousness…

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: The apara prakrti. This is…

Prabhupada: No, no, no.

Dr. Patel: Para-prakrti.

Prabhupada: Not consciousness. Consciousness is also matter. Consciousness…

Dr. Patel: There are two prakrtis.

Prabhupada: Prakrti… That prakrti’s soul. That prakrti is soul, para-prakrti.

Dr. Patel: Para-prakrti, yes.

Prabhupada: Soul is also prakrti. Soul is not purusa. The Mayavadis, they consider soul as purusa. But it is spoken in the Bhagavad-gita as prakrti. Prakrti… Jiva-bhutam maha-baho [Bg. 7.5]. Jiva-bhuta, the soul which is now covered with this material body is called jiva-bhuta.

Mr. Sar: Apareyam itas tv anyat.

Prabhupada: So therefore it is decided that both these material elements and the soul, both of them are prakrtis. One is superior; another is inferior.

Dr. Patel: Apara prakrti is soul.

Mr. Sar: No, no,…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Apara is matter.

Prabhupada: Matter, yes.

Dr. Patel: The para…

Mr. Sar: The para is the soul.

Prabhupada: Para is the soul.

Mr. Sar: Jiva-bhutam maha-baho. That is also prakrti word.

Dr. Patel: Yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg. 7.5].

Prabhupada: And… No, no. What is the…? What is the proof of the soul? Now, yayedam dharyate jagat. One who is working with this inferior energy. Just like I am working with this body.

Dr. Patel: It animates the inferior energy.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: It animates the inferior prakrti.

Prabhupada: Yes, working, working. One is the worker, and another is the working ingredient, prakrti.

Dr. Patel: Yayedam dharyate jagat.

Prabhupada: Jagat. Because…

Dr. Patel: That means the jagat is being held by that.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because… This Bombay city is important because there are so many para-prakrtis. If there was no living entity, who cares for the Bombay city?

Dr. Patel: So living entity is the para-prakrti.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Oh, living entity is the para-prakrti.

Prabhupada: Para. But prakrti. But it is prakrti. It is not purusa. Therefore this prakrti is trying to become purusa here. That is illusion.

Dr. Patel: Or, or people calling prakrti as purusa is Mayavada.

Prabhupada: Eh? No, no. Prakrti, jiva, yayedam dharyate ja… They are working… They are trying to enjoy. But… They are trying to be enjoyer. But that is not possible. Prakrti is enjoyed. Just like stri-purusa. Purusa is enjoyer, and stri is enjoyed. Similarly, prakrti is used for the satisfaction of the purusa. So if the jiva is prakrti, then the purusa, purusa is the Supreme Person. Therefore his business is to satisfy the Supreme Purusa. This is bhakti-yoga.

Guest (1): Then, then isn’t it sankhya?

Prabhupada: Yes, it is sankhya.

Dr. Patel: Prakrti trying to satisfy purusa is a sankhya philosophy.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. This is sankhya. This is sankhya philosophy.

Mr. Sar: Jiva is the prakrti.

Prabhupada: Prakrti.

Mr. Sar: Oh, jiva is prakrti. Ah.

Prabhupada: And the Mayavadi philosophy, they say it is purusa. Therefore… Therefore avisuddha-buddhayah. The Mayavadis, Mayavadis are described as avisuddha-buddhayah.

Dr. Patel: Buddha was also an avatara of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Oh… And in Bhagavad-gita it is also said, abuddhayah. What is that sloka?

Mr. Sar: Abuddhayah.

Prabhupada: Manyante mam abuddhayah.

Mr. Sar: Abuddhayah.

Prabhupada: Avyaktam vyaktim apannam ma…

Mr. Sar: Manyante mam abuddhayah, param…

Prabhupada: Abuddhayah. So these Mayavadis are abuddhayah. They are not intelligent.

Mr. Sar: No intelligence.

Prabhupada: And in Bhagavata it is said, avisuddha-buddhayah. The plural number is there, avisuddha, that “intelligence is not yet clear.” Avisuddha. Avisuddha-buddhayah. Ye ‘nye ‘ravindaksa vimukta-maninah. But they are thinking that they have become liberated. Now you call… They address amongst themselves, “Narayana.” “Narayana.”

Mr. Sar:

etad yonini bhutani

sarvanity upadharaya

aham krtsnasya jagatah

prabhavah pralayas tatha

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: They are two yoni.

Prabhupada: Now, etad yonini, all kinds of species or forms of life, or whatever you see, they are simply combination of this para-prakrti and apara-prakrti. But both the prakrtis coming from Krsna, janmadyasya yatah, He is the actual, actual cause of everything.

Mr. Sar: Aham krtsnasya jagatah prabhavah…

Prabhupada: Ah. Prabhavah pralayas tatha. But prabhavah, prabhavah, as Brahma, creation, as Visnu, maintenance, as Siva, dissolution.

Mr. Sar: Destroyer.

Prabhupada: But Krsna is the original cause of Brahma, Visnu… Aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. Aham adir hi devanam.

Dr. Patel: So He is, in a way, all the three.

Mr. Sar: He’s all the three. Yes, He’s all the three.

Prabhupada: Yes, He’s not only three, He’s many.

Mr. Sar: And above them, and above them, and above them.

Prabhupada: He’s many. Eko bahu syama. Not three. But in the material world that three may be the beginning. But there are many.

Mr. Sar: Eko bahu syama.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Eko bahu syam. Aham krtsnasya jagatah prabhavah pralayas tatha. Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7].

Prabhupada: Ah. Now… Because He’s the ultimate cause, therefore no more superior than Him.

Dr. Patel: “Nothing beyond Me.”

Prabhupada: “Nothing beyond Me.” Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7].

Mr. Sar: Mayi sarvam idam protam sutre mani-gana iva.

Prabhupada: Yes. (aside) Hare Krsna. Thank you. Because He’s the original cause, therefore everything is depending on Him. That is explained in the Ninth Chapter, I think. maya tatam idam sarvam jagad avyakta… The avyakta-murti also He is. That is another feature, another feature. But maya, the central feature is the person, Krsna.

Mr. Sar: Raso ‘ham apsu kaunteya prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh, pranavah sarva-vedesu… [Bg. 7.8]

Prabhupada: Now, those who cannot realize the supreme cause, they are instructed how to realize. How to realize… If, while drinking water, you think, “Now this taste is Krsna,” raso ‘ham apsu kaunteya. He says that “I am the taste of the water.” So everyone is drinking water. There is no man who does not drink water. At least. So if he remembers, “Now, the taste, this taste is Krsna,” then he remembers Krsna. And that is bhakti. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam [SB 7.5.23]. Even by remembering, he becomes a devotee, gradually.

Mr. Sar: Prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh.

Prabhupada: Yes. And even if you cannot understand this, that how the taste of the water becomes Krsna, all right, you see the sunlight. You inquire, “Wherefrom the light is coming?” Then you come to Krsna. And if you are not foolish, ordinary person, if you are Vedantist, then try, “the omkara, Myself.” Om tad visnoh paramam padam… He’s learned. He’s thinking, “Nirakara.” “No, I am. Pranavah, the omkara, the beginning of all Vedic mantras, the omkara, that I am.”

Dr. Patel: Pranavah sarva-bhut…

Mr. Sar: Sarva-vedesu.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Sabdah khe paurusam nrsu.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Sabdah khe.

Prabhupada: And… Yes. Sabdah khe. In the sky. So in the sky there is sabdah. As the aeroplane goes, there is sabdah, (makes imitative sound) guraguraguragura… He can remember Krsna. Is it very difficult? You see. Bhakti-yoga, how nice it is! When the aeroplane is passing, there is guragura sabdah, you find Krsna. When you are tasting water, you find Krsna. When there is sunlight, you find Krsna. When there is moonlight, you find… When you’re chanting Vedas, you find Krsna. So how you can be without Krsna consciousness? It is simply foolishness that it cannot be done. No. The how it can be done, that Krsna personally is teaching. Learn it. And do it.

Mr. Sar: Punyo gandhah prthivyam ca…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Tejas casmi vibhavasau.

Prabhupada: There are two kinds of smell, bad smell and good smell. So when you smell a nice flower, punya-gandhah, you remember Krsna. “Here is Krsna. Here is Krsna.” Punyo-gandhah prthivyam ca.

Mr. Sar: Tejas casmi vibhavasau.

Prabhupada: When we, when you find vibhutimat sattvam, a very powerful man, a powerful elephant, you should, you know that “There is Krsna. This power is Krsna.”

Dr. Patel: This is standard nyaya.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar:

yad yad vibhutimat sattvam

srimad urjitam eva va

tat tad evavagaccha tvam

mama tejo-‘msa-sambhavam

Prabhupada: So where is the difficulty to understand Krsna? (laughs) Every moment you can remember Krsna. Every moment you can see Krsna, provided you have got eyes. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Santah. So you have to become a santah, perfect santa. Then you’ll see Krsna always.

Mr. Sar: Jivanam sarva-bhutesu tapas casmi tapasvisu.

Dr. Patel: The very life of every individual is Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Jivanam sarva-bhutesu.

Prabhupada: Yes. So without Krsna, as soon as… So long the Paramatma is there… Or the jiva is there… Jiva is also Krsna. Because part and parcel of Krsna, acintya-bhedabheda. So so long Krsna is there, either as atma or Paramatma, then the body’s moving. But the so-called scientists, they do not know. Therefore they do not understand what is Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Scientists have started understanding Krsna.

Prabhupada: They are standing?

Dr. Patel: They have started understanding Krsna now. Scientists.

Prabhupada: Now, here is the… This is very simple. A child can understand. Here is a dead body, and here is a living body. What is the difference? That Krsna is not there, and here is Krsna. That’s all.

Dr. Patel: That is what I say…

Prabhupada: Yes. But these rascal scientists will not understand this.

Dr. Patel: Einstein?

Prabhupada: No, yes. They have no… They are, they are… I know one scientist, a rascal scientist. He has written one “Chemical Evolution.”

Guest (1): Yes.

Dr. Patel: Litleus. (?)

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Article came. I read it.

Prabhupada: Yes. “Chemical evolution.” “From chemical life has come.” Just see. And he has got Nobel Prize.

Dr. Patel: That is the Russians.

Mr. Sar: Is it?

Dr. Patel: No, that man has not got the Nobel Prize.

Prabhupada: Oh yes. I know. In California University he was there. So one of, one of my students, he’s also professor in the… Dr. Svarupa Damodara. He challenged that “Suppose if I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?” That time he said, “That I cannot say.” From that day, his meeting was not attended by the students. Yes. He theoretically said that “From chemicals life has come into existence.”

Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact…

Prabhupada: No.

Dr. Patel: …life keeps the chemicals together. As soon as the life goes away, the chemicals dissolve.

Prabhupada: Dissolve, yes. As a medical practitioner, you know. Where is chemical? Where is chemical? That is a fact.

Dr. Patel: Always fact.

Mr. Sar: So still we are researching it.

Prabhupada: No…

Dr. Patel: There is no research…

Prabhupada: That is… But when the fact is there, what is the use of your researching? When the fact is already there, what is the use of your so-called researching?

Guest (3): How can we see Krsna?

Prabhupada: That is being explained.

Mr. Sar:

bijam mam sarva-bhutanam

viddhi partha sanatanam

buddhir buddhimatam asmi

tejas tejasvinam aham

[Bg. 7.10]

Prabhupada: Now, that is explained that prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh. Sasi means moon, and surya means sun. Prabha. So as soon as in the morning you see the sunshine, there you see Krsna.

Dr. Patel: “I am the very light of sun and moon.”

Prabhupada: Why do you say, “I don’t see Krsna”? Krsna says, “I am here, that, as prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh,” But why don’t you see?

Guest (3): God is there. But we want to see original form of Lord Krsna.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. That will take three millions of years to understand. (laughter) That is already explained. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye, yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3]. That is not so easy.

Dr. Patel: Mam vetthi tattvatah.

Guest (3): What is the method of seeing God?

Prabhupada: Here, bhakti-yoga. That is, that is, that is the beginning.

mayy asakta-manah partha

yogam yunjan mad-asrayah

asamsayam samagram mam

yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu

[Bg. 7.1]

That is being explained.

Mr. Sar: No, my doubt is that some people must have become siddha in this age also, must have seen Krsna.

Guest: Oh yes. Why not?

Prabhupada: No, no. Yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3]. Even siddhas cannot see.

Mr. Sar: Yatatam api. But then there must be somebody of the siddhas…

Prabhupada: Means… Those siddhas were satisfied, “Now I have become Brahman.”

Mr. Sar: No, not those siddhas, satisfied.

Prabhupada: And still, after that,

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

[Bg. 18.54]

One is engaged in bhakti. They also, after many, many years, will understand what is Krsna.

Mr. Sar: But in this age there must be some people…

Prabhupada: There is always. Not in this age or that age.

Mr. Sar: Every, every, every…

Prabhupada: Everywhere, every age.

Mr. Sar: Then you must have seen Krsna in the human form.

Prabhupada: I, uh…

Mr. Sar: That is the divine form.

Prabhupada: So…

Mr. Sar: Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1].

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah is the real vigrahah of Krsna form [Bs. 5.1].

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Krsna, when viewed on the earth, He had that form.

Prabhupada: No, just like…

Dr. Patel: That sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah form [Bs. 5.1].

Prabhupada: …a devotee sees the Deity of Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Come here. Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah is the real form of Krsna [Bs. 5.1].

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: If you can understand it beyond the five senses of us.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: You cannot see with the karma eyes or hear him with these ears. You have to go beyond.

Prabhupada: No, you can see. Just like with cataract eyes you cannot see. But if the cataract is removed, you can see. So similarly, to see Krsna you have to develop attachment for Krsna. Mayy asakta-manah, yogam yunjan mad-asrayah. So you have to be free from the cataract. Then you’ll see.

Dr. Patel: Cataract is the cataract of maya. False illusion.

Prabhupada: Yes. So that means…

Dr. Patel: Am I right?

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore you have to purify your eyes by bhakti-yoga operation. And then you’ll see. With stick. With stick.

Dr. Patel: You see, you have to actually condition yourself to, I mean, receive… [break]

Prabhupada: …confirmed in Brahma-samhita. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [Bs. 5.38]. Bhakti-vilocanena. Santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. Those who have become santa and those whose eyes are smeared with love of Godhead, they see every moment Krsna. They do not see anything but Krsna.

Mr. Sar: Balam balavatam asmi.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Kama-raga-vivarjitah.

Prabhupada: Now this is another seeing, another seeing, that one is very strong. That strong, strength is Krsna.

Mr. Sar: Where does he get the strength from? Strength is Krsna.

Prabhupada: That is Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Kama-raga-vivarjitah.

Mr. Sar: Dharmaviruddho bhutesu kamo ‘smi bharatarsabha. That is a very important… Dharma aviruddhah.

Dr. Patel: This… Please explain that.

Prabhupada: Yes. Dharma aviruddho. Dharma aviruddho means putrarthe kriyate bharya. Putrarthe bharya. Wife is accepted only for getting son, not for sexual intercourse. Putrarthe kriyate bharya. So when you have sex life simply for generating good son, that is Krsna. And if you want to enjoy your senses, that is papa.

Mr. Sar: That’s correct.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: If you take that way, then the…

Prabhupada: If you take contraceptive and enjoy sex life…

Mr. Sar: That is not allowed.

Prabhupada: That is maha-papa. That is killing. This is going on. This is going on. All over the world.

Dr. Patel: Ye caiva sattvika-bhava rajasas tamasas ca ye.

Mr. Sar: Matta eveti tan viddhi na tv aham tesu te mayi.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: And all the three modes of nature also is.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. They are also… As the material elements coming from Krsna, these gunas also coming from Krsna. But Krsna is not there.

Mr. Sar: He’s above that.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: None of the gunas are there.

Prabhupada: Just like an electrician. He is, by his knowledge, he is, the same box, he’s turning to be a refrigerator. And again heater. He knows how, the art. So the heat and the coolness is coming from the engineer. But he’s not there. He’s not there.

Dr. Patel: God is with that.

Mr. Sar: Tribhir gunamayir bhavair ebhih sarvam idam jagat.

Prabhupada: Then again comes to that, here… Krsna is within the dog, but he is not dog.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupada: And if you say “dog-narayana,” that is mistake. (laughter)

Mr. Sar: Tribhir gunamayir bhavair…

Prabhupada: (laughing) “Dog-narayana!” Mean… If daridra can become Narayana, why not dog? What he has done?

Dr. Patel: maya tatam idam sarvam jagad avyakta-murtina [Bg. 9.4].

Prabhupada: No, so that I am explaining. So if you take in that sense, because He has expanded Himself everywhere, so why do you say, “daridra-narayana”? You say, “dog-narayana, dhani-narayana, cat-narayana — everyone is Narayana.” Why you particularize this section?

Mr. Sar: Because they are human beings. That’s why I take in that way.

Prabhupada: No, no, no human. If you have got so broad vision, because the Narayana has entered everywhere, so you cannot say simply “daridra-narayana.” You can say, “the sun-narayana. Sun-narayana.” There is also.

Mr. Sar: But the human beings they are more, you see, first…

Dr. Patel: That’s right, but I think…

Prabhupada: No, no, no… That’s… It is argument. It is argument.

Mr. Sar: Let him explain it.

Prabhupada: Here see… If you have got so broad vision that Narayana is everywhere present, why you particularize daridra-narayana?

Mr. Sar: Well, human beings, we are the first of everywhere.

Prabhupada: Everyone. “Dog-narayana, cat-narayana.”

Guest (3): If you say that you are… [break] That’s nonsense.

Prabhupada: These, these rascals, what are they? Now, they are worshiping daridra-narayana and they are killing goat-narayana.

Guest (3): That’s right.

Dr. Patel: Goat-narayana. Yes. And eating it away.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: That’s the answer of it.

Guest (4): That is God killing God. Part of God killing…

Prabhupada: No, God does not kill.

Dr. Patel: God never kills anything, and nothing is killed.

Guest (4): He says that human beings and cats and dogs are God Himself. That means…

Mr. Sar: No, no, no, no. That’s…

Prabhupada: No, that’s… [break] …(the version) of the cats and dogs, not of Krsna. That is the… This is the version of the cats and dogs. Krsna says, naham tesu.

Dr. Patel: Naham tesu te mayi. “They are in Me. Not I am in them.”

Mr. Sar: Tribhir gunamayair bhavair ebhih sarvam…, mohitam nabhijanati…

Prabhupada: Ah! Mohitam, bewildered by the three modes of nature, they cannot understand what is Krsna.

Mr. Sar:

daivi hy esa gunamayi

mama-maya duratyaya

mam eva ye prapadyante

mayam etam taranti te

[Bg. 7.14]

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore the bhaktas who have surrendered to Krsna, they can understand everything.

Mr. Sar: That is the most important.

Prabhupada: Yes. Mam eva ye prapadyante.

Mr. Sar: Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante… [Bg. 7.15].

Prabhupada: Yes. (laughter) Now, here the question… Here the question is that mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. So it is very easy thing. Why not surrender to Krsna and become free from maya? But their… The answer is there: na mam duskrtino mudhah.

Dr. Patel: Four types of people.

Prabhupada: Rascals and mudhas and sinful men, they do not do that.

Mr. Sar: And then again, catur-vidha bhajante mam…

Prabhupada: But those who are pious, sukrtina, they do.

Dr. Patel: Catur-vidha bhajante… My name is Caturbhai. (Prabhupada chuckles)

Mr. Sar: One of them, catur-vidha. But they… Their mode of worship is fourfold, arto jijnasur artharthi… [break]

Prabhupada: Arto, arto jijnasi means grhasthas.

Dr. Patel: Tesam jnani…

Prabhupada: And jnani and jijnasu, sannyasis.

Mr. Sar: Jnani and… I see. Arto and…

Prabhupada: Arto and… Because they, the grhasthas, they feel distress of this material world.

Dr. Patel: That is, they are artas.

Prabhupada: Artas. They are in need of money. But a sannyasi is not in need of money, neither he cares for these worldly miseries.

Mr. Sar: He’s jijnasu.

Prabhupada: Eh? Jijnasu. He’s jijnasu. So they are better.

Dr. Patel: Jnani, jijnasu and jnani, both together.

Prabhupada: Yes. The jijnasu and jnani is almost the same thing. Anyway, so, so grhasthas are inferior because as soon as their distressed condition is over, they, they are no more interested.

Dr. Patel: They forget so.

Prabhupada: They are no more interested. But these jnanis and jijnasu, because they want to know what is Krsna, they continue. That is the difference.

Guest (1): Even jnani and jijnasu also?

Dr. Patel: Tesam jnani nitya-yukta eka-bhaktir visisyate.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Jijnasu is the beginner, and jnani is realized. Jnani is realized. Therefore he’s better. But that jnani does not mean that “I have become God.” One who is situated in bhakti-yoga. Eka-bhaktih.

Mr. Sar: Eka-bhaktih.

Dr. Patel: “He is dear to Me, and I am dear to him.” Jnani.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: But He is dear to everyone, and everyone is dear to Him.

Prabhupada: No, especially. Especially. Just like you have got many students. One is very intelligent. You take care of him especially. Therefore… The jnani is intelligent. Therefore He takes care.

Mr. Sar: Udarah sarva evaite jnani tv atmaiva me matam [Bg. 7.18].

Dr. Patel: That is very important.

Prabhupada: Everything is important.

Dr. Patel: Jnani tva atmaiva me matam.

Prabhupada: Yes, “Because he has accepted Me after full knowledge, nobody can defeat him. Therefore he is My atma.” Especially.

Dr. Patel: So jnanis a…

Mr. Sar: Asthito…

Prabhupada: Jnani means one who can defend by knowledge Krsna’s identity. That is jnani.

Mr. Sar: Or he’s asthitah…

Dr. Patel: “Perpetually welded with Me.”

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. (laughter)

Prabhupada: And the so-called jnanavan, they’ll take many, many, many births.

Mr. Sar: So-called, so-called, yes, so-called.

Prabhupada: So-called. Because actually when he becomes wise, he prapadyante, he surrenders. That is the sy…

Mr. Sar: If he has become jnani with bhakti…

Prabhupada: Then you’ll find, you’ll find that he has surrendered. Vasudevah sarvam… He has no… “No, Vasudeva, Krsna, is everything.”

Mr. Sar: Real jnani is that who…

Prabhupada: That is real jnani.

Mr. Sar: …who has surrendered himself. That is correct. Bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19], jnanavan …, vasudevah sarvam iti, sa mahatma su-durlabhah [Bg. 7.19].

Prabhupada: Sa mahatma su-durlabhah.

Dr. Patel: Vasudevah sarvam etam…

Prabhupada: Eh?

Mr. Sar: Sarvam khalv idam brahma.

Prabhupada: Vasudevah sarvam idam means Vasudeva is everything. Because… We already explained: There are two energies, prakrti of Vasudeva, one apara and para. And whatever you see, this is combination of this apara and para. Therefore Vasudeva is everything.

Dr. Patel: Sa mahatma su-durlabhah.

Prabhupada: Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah [Bg. 7.19].

Mr. Sar: Kamais tair hrta-jnanah…

Dr. Patel: So that way Vasudeva is sarvam khalv idam brahma. Hogya. Same thing He is…

Prabhupada: Huh. But Vasudeva is there. It does not mean… Mayavadi says, “Because Vasudeva has got everything, He has become everything, He’s finished.”

Mr. Sar: Vasudeva still above.

Dr. Patel: That is… Nobody says that.

Prabhupada: That is Mayavada. Yes. That is Mayavada, impersonalism. They don’t accept the person. That… “Because Vasudeva has expanded Himself in so many ways, therefore the identity of Vasudeva is finished.”

Dr. Patel: It cannot be exactly. Purnam idam purnam adhah.. [Isopanisad, Invocation].

Prabhupada: That’s all right. But because they are fools, they cannot understand.

Mr. Sar: Celo. Celo. You are a fool; so you don’t understand. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: No. Don’t call me a fool. I’ll hit him.

Mr. Sar: We are fighting! We are fighting! No, we are not fighting.

Prabhupada: (laughing) Now, now one thing I must explain. I think Dr. Patel is the eldest of you.

Mr. Sar: Yes, he is the oldest.

Prabhupada: All right. So you are all… He’s just like my younger brother.

Mr. Sar: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupada: And you are all, mostly, you are just like my sons.

Dr. Patel: I am also your son. (laughter)

Prabhupada: (laughing) No, you are younger brother. Sons are on the same level. So I have got the right to say sometimes “Rascal, fool.” Don’t be angry.

Dr. Patel: And we accept it also. We know that within yourself you take us to be something different.

Prabhupada: That is out of love. [break] He thinks he’s government. Because “Unless he’s satisfied, if I do any mistake, immediately he’ll arrest me.” So he thinks “This constable is government.” That’s all. He does not know behind the constable, there is head constable, there is… [break] He sees directly, “The constable harasses me. So, ‘Sir. Namaskara.’ ” Just like in the village, there are so many [break] done. Somebody is killing the hens. We have got here? Before some deity? So there are so many deities.

Dr. Patel: All these Hindus, they always worship those… [break]

Prabhupada: …and (Hindi), and this, that, so many, hundreds and thousands.

Mr. Sar: Antavat tu phalam tesam tad… [Bg. 7.23].

Prabhupada: Ah, here is…

Mr. Sar: …bhavaty alpa-medhasam.

Prabhupada: But they… Now it is clear. That antavat tu phalam tesam. That is intelligence, that “If I have to ask something, and it is to be ended, why shall I be interested with such thing?” So devan deva-yajo yanti…

Mr. Sar: Mad-bhakta yanti mam api.

Prabhupada: Mam api. So why not go to Krsna? Why to these… [break] The Mayavadis, they think that Krsna has got His maya body. His body’s maya. Because the origin, Absolute, is impersonal, so when the Absolute comes in form, He accepts the material elements just like we do. We do. So they are abuddhayah. Their intelligence is abu…

Mr. Sar: Avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah [Bg. 7.24].

Prabhupada: Vyaktim apannam.

Dr. Patel: They consider body of Krsna as Krsna.

Prabhupada: Avyaktam, avyaktam, the Absolute Truth is avyaktam. And when Absolute Truth comes, incarnation, He accepts this mayic body.

Dr. Patel: Only body, and the real is inside.

Prabhupada: And that has been commented by Dr. Radhakrishnan. When Krsna says that man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], he says that “It is not to the Krsna person, but what is within Him. Within Him.” That means he is under the theory that Krsna’s body is maya. So you haven’t got to surrender to the body of Krsna. But this fool does not know that there is no such distinction in Krsna.

Mr. Sar: Avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam…

Prabhupada: Ah! No, Krsna has no such distinction as body and soul. Prakrtim svam adhisthaya. He comes in His own, original body. Sambhavami yuge… Prakrtim svam. Not this prakrti. Svam, the spiritual body. That they do not take.

Mr. Sar: Param bhavam ajananto mamavyayam anuttamam.

Prabhupada: Param bhavam ajanantah [Bg. 9.11]. That Krsna is so powerful that He can come in a spiritual body. Otherwise how He remembers millions of years. If His body’s changing, it is material, then how He can remember?

Mr. Sar: Naham prakasah sarvasya yoga-maya… [Bg. 7.25].

Prabhupada: Ah. Yogamaya-samavrtah… Therefore He’s not manifest except to the devotee.

Mr. Sar: Mudho ‘yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25].

Prabhupada: Again, mudha and mudha comes. (laughter)

Mr. Sar: Vedaham samatitani vartamanani car… [Bg. 7.26]

Prabhupada: This is Krsna. Vedaham samatitani.

Dr. Patel: Kalatitah.

Prabhupada: Kala ati… Yes.

Dr. Patel: He’s kalatitah.

Prabhupada: Kalatitah because He, He’s all spirit. Therefore He knows everything.

Dr. Patel: Kala is an illusion.

Prabhupada: No, kala is also Krsna, another form of Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Kalo ‘smi. In the Eleventh chapter He has said.

Mr. Sar: Iccha-dvesa-samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata [Bg. 7.27].

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sarge. Those who have come to this material world, they are envious of Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Iccha-dvesa-samutthena.

Prabhupada: Yes. Iccha-dvesa… They… “Why shall I serve Krsna? I shall become Krsna.” This is iccha-dvesa.

Dr. Patel: Is that so because of the reason of not understanding Krsna, they go on…

Prabhupada: No, no. Krsna is enjoyer. Just like a big businessman, and his secretary is working under him. So he sometimes thinks, “Why shall I work under him? Why not become another Birla like him?” That is the fall down. He’s happy there, becoming secretary of a big man, but he gives up the job and tries himself and becomes a vagabond. That’s all. This is the position. Anyone who is trying to become…

Dr. Patel: Iccha-dvesa-samutthena dvandva-mohena…

Prabhupada: Dvandva-mohena.

Dr. Patel: Because they are illusioned by the dvandvas.

Prabhupada: Dvandas.

Dr. Patel: If they understand that there is unity and nothing else but Krsna, then they are released from the maya’s condition.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: Otherwise, they are going…

Prabhupada: So therefore they’ll not… If anyone knows that “Wherever I go, Krsna’s supremacy is there. Krsna’s supreme is there.” But he is perplexed, dvandva-mohena, that “If I leave Krsna, I become more happy.” That is dvandva-mohah.

Dr. Patel: Dvandva-mohah means all duality of this…

Prabhupada: Yes, duality. He’s making duality that “Krsna’s interest and my interest, different.”

Mr. Sar: All likes and dislikes.

Prabhupada: “Krsna’s interest and my interests, different.” That is dvandva-moha. When he understands that “My interest and Krsna’s interest is the same,” then it is not dvandva-moha.

Dr. Patel: Dvandva-mohena bharata.

Mr. Sar: Yesam tv anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam…

Prabhupada: Ah. This dvandva-mohah exists with the sinful man, but one who is freed from all sinful reactions, resultant actions, he can understand Krsna.

Mr. Sar: Te dvandva-moha-nirmukta bhajante mam drdha-vratah [Bg. 7.28].

Prabhupada: Mam drdha-vratah. Then he engages himself drdha-vratah: “No, I am simply servant of Krsna. That’s all.”

Mr. Sar: Jara-marana-moksaya mam asritya yatanti ye, te brahma…

Prabhupada: Now, here, here the real problem is jara-marana-moksaya. But they are, these people, they are engaged in paltry things. The real business is how to become free from the janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9]. They do not know that. Real, real purpose of life they do not know. Take any big leader. He does not know what is the aim of life. What is the problem of life, he does not know. Mudha na abhijananti, mudha mam nabhijananti.

Dr. Patel: Mudha mam abhijananti.

Mr. Sar: Mudho ‘yam nabhijanati [Bg. 7.25].

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Te brahma tad viduh krtsnam adhyatmam karma cakhilam.

Prabhupada: Now these things will be explained further in the next chapter. [break] …nothing to… He’s self-sufficient. He hasn’t got to find out maya to enjoy.

Dr. Patel: No, the lower… That is the jiva.

Prabhupada: And the jiva, because he’s dependent, he has to… Just like a servant. If he wants to, little more comfort, he may find out a bigger master. But he has to serve. That is the position. You have to serve. If you don’t serve Krsna, then you serve maya. That’s all.

Dr. Patel: That is what I was saying, that…

Prabhupada: This is the position.

Guest (5): Does God need service?

Prabhupada: God does not need. You need to serve God. God does not need.

Guest (5): He’s not self-sufficient, you mean.

Prabhupada: He’s self-sufficient, but it is for your interest.

Guest (5): He knows before creating people, they’ll sin. Then why does He create them?

Prabhupada: Eh? Eh? He does not create. This is all nonsense question. He does not create. He does not create.

Guest (5): He’s not omniscient?

Prabhupada: He’s omniscient, everything. But you want. Therefore He has given you facility, “All right, you enjoy. And become entangled. That’s all.” Therefore at last He says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Therefore He says that “This is rascaldom. You are trying this, this, that, that. No! Don’t try that. Come on. Surrender unto Me.” This is the last instruction.

Dr. Patel: Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ‘rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61], bhramayan… [break] …but you are illusioned because of the maya… [break]

Prabhupada: One man is in the prison house. So he supports, “Why government has created the prison house?” There must be somebody.

Dr. Patel: You go in. “So let me go in.”

Prabhupada: But government does not want that. Only the criminals are sent there. That’s all. Similarly, this material creation, there was no necessity. But because there are criminals who want to enjoy, therefore God has given this facility, “All right, you enjoy.”

Dr. Patel: The whole material world is created by the propensity of the past actions of all… [break]

Prabhupada: No, because God knows that “There are some fools and rascals who will desire like that. All right, if they want,…”

Dr. Patel: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like government knows. Suppose government is creating one city, but he’s creating at the same time the jail house. Although there is no criminal at that time. But government knows there are some criminals who will fulfill this jail house. Because you are independent. Everyone is independent. Not absolute independent, but slight independent. So therefore you have the option either to serve God or serve maya. That’s all.

Dr. Patel: Serve God or serve Mammon.

Prabhupada: That’s it.

Dr. Patel: You can’t serve two masters at the same time. [break]

Prabhupada: That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact… [break]

Prabhupada: …minute quantity. [break]

Guest (5): Why does God permit all these sins and offenses?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Dr. Patel: That is the eternal… That a madman created all this. [break]

Prabhupada: Why do you not understand? God does not create. But you create. Just like you infect some disease. So you create your disease. Nobody’s creating your disease. The simple thing, why don’t you understand? If you… Karanam guna-sango ‘sya. Karanam guna-sango ‘sya. Guna-sanga. If you associate with the different qualities of this material nature, then you inf…, you become infected. You, if you associate with the tamo-guna, then you become lower class man, animals. That is your fault. It is not Krsna’s fault.

Dr. Patel: All your actions and their effects, which are collecting on you… [break]

Guest (5): …knows the procreating from the first word or some people would exercise their so-called free will and choosing sin, and still He creates them. If He were not to…

Prabhupada: No, no, no. There is no question of choosing. As soon as you associate some infections disease, it is not the question of disease. You must be diseased. This is the law of nature. If you infect the smallpox disease, then you must be suffering from smallpox. That is law of nature. Not that your father has created small pox disease for you. Try to understand like this. You infect yourself. [break] …giving him chance.

Dr. Patel: But you, as a jiva, is so much engrossed in the maya, in the tree, in the fruits of it, that you don’t heed…

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: …what (Hindi?) says.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That is the… That is the disease. Now, Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam… [Bg. 18.66]. Who is caring for Him?

Dr. Patel: So you stop this looking down and look up.

Prabhupada: Who is caring for Him? That is independence. Now you suffer.

Dr. Patel: And once you look up and when you realize that this is all…

Prabhupada: Then you become…

Dr. Patel: …His maya, all is due to Him, then you get released from the bondage of the maya, and you get…

Prabhupada: maya, maya, maya… It is not for Krsna; for me.

Dr. Patel: maya is for jiva.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like darkness. Darkness means absence of sun. But sun is never absence of sun.

Mr. Sar: Yes, sun is never absent.

Prabhupada: Sun is always in the sunlight. It is for us to be in the darkness.

Mr. Sar: Krsna is the Lord of maya. He’s the Lord of maya.

Prabhupada: Mayam etam taranti te. By simply surrendering unto Krsna, one becomes freed from maya. So how Krsna can be under the influence of maya?

Mr. Sar: No, He cannot. He’s the Lord of maya.

Prabhupada: Yes. But these Mayavadis says that “Krsna is also, when He comes, He comes under the influence of maya.” This is called Mayavada. [break] …these bhuta, material, material adhibhutas. And adhiyajna. Adhiyajna is Paramatma. And adhibhuta, material. And adhidaiva…

Dr. Patel: Is the other demigods.

Prabhupada: Devas, yes.

Dr. Patel: All the devas of the ten indriyas.

Mr. Sar: He’s asking already, kim tad brahma kim…

Prabhupada: That is… These are the questions. So this will be answered.

Dr. Patel: In the next chapter it will be answered. This is the beginning of… This is the question put to raise the new chapter.

Mr. Sar: But there in the next chapter, anta-kale ca mam eva smaran muktva… [Bg. 8.5]. [break] Yah prayati sa mad-bhavam…

Prabhupada: That is Krsna consciousness.

Dr. Patel: That is the fact. But anta-kale you remember Him…? [break]

Prabhupada: …practice remembering Krsna, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna, how you’ll be able. Anta-kale. There, there will be so many disarrangement of the body. You see? But if you practice, if you practice, then it is possible.

Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact…

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: It is fact only. I may tell you that you must have… [break]

Prabhupada: …to always remember Krsna, it is not that all of a sudden you remember Krsna. That is not possible.

Mr. Sar: That’s why He says, tasmat sarvesu kalesu mam anusmara yudhya ca… [Bg. 8.7].

Dr. Patel: That is… I told you…

Mr. Sar: Mayyarpita-mano-buddhir…

Dr. Patel: Just like I have repeatedly told you…

Prabhupada: This is simplest method. In whatever condition of life you may remain, you simply remember Krsna. That’s all. That is our Krsna consciousness movement. That’s all.

Mr. Sar: Ananya-cetah satatam yo mam smarati nityasah… [break]

Prabhupada: …demigods. That is not possible.

Mr. Sar: Mam upetya punar janma… [Bg. 8.15]. [break]

Prabhupada: …simply distributing what Krsna says. That’s all. I am a fool number one also, like others.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no, no, no.

Prabhupada: But my only ambition is that I don’t speak anything else beyond Krsna’s speaking. That’s all.

Mr. Sar: Correct sir. Just you are uncompromisingly speaking. That uncompromising you are speaking. [break]

Prabhupada: …places that “Swamiji, how you have done this wonderful thing?” And I do not know what is wonderful thing. But I know this that I do not adulterate. That’s all. [break] That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission. He says, yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna’ upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That’s all. Amara ajnaya… Caitanya Mahaprabhu says… Dr. Patel, hear. Krsna says, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that amara ajnaya guru hana tara’ ei desa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. “You become a guru.” Just see. “You become a guru by My order.” Then one may say that “What qualification I have got that I can become guru?” That only qualification: yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna’ upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You don’t require to manufacture any upadesa. Whatever is there already spoken by Krsna, you distribute it. You become guru. This is guru. Not that you are fool. Yes, I am fool. But I am not so fool like you that I adulterate.

Dr. Patel: No, I…

Prabhupada: That’s all.

Dr. Patel: I am a fool number one. (laughter) Two or three. Like that. (laughter) [break]

Prabhupada: …was a fool. But if we follow Krsna, then even though I am fool, I am right. Just like this child, he’s a fool. But if the father says, “My dear child, this is called stick.” And when she says, “This is stick,” this is right. He may be fool, but the version which is given, that is right. So I may be fool, you may be fool. That’s all right. If you carry Krsna’s message, then you are right. [break] We are fool. How I have come to this material…? Yes.

Mr. Sar: You are not part of the… Unless you are in the realm of maya, you cannot be born as a human being.

Prabhupada: Oh yes. [break] …samutthena sarge yanti…

Mr. Sar: Born in the maya.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: maya means that thing… [break]

Prabhupada: …that is. That is right. One who says like that, “It is right,” he’s not in maya. mayam etam taranti te.

Dr. Patel: Because He is the maya-maker.

Prabhupada: Yes. He is, He says that mam eva ye prapadyante. If you simply speak what Krsna has spoken, then they are not in maya. You are not in maya. Hare Krsna. [break] …what Krsna says, then you are not in maya.

Dr. Patel: That’s right. Because He is actually… [break]

Prabhupada: …then he surpasses maya.

Dr. Patel: Unless and until you know the madari who makes the web…

Prabhupada: But you can know when you surrender to Krsna. [break] So if you are so unintelligent, then it is impossible. But if you have got little intelligence, then you can see Krsna. Because Krsna says… We were explaining that, that “The taste of the water I am.” So don’t you taste water? So the taste is Krsna. What is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty?

Guest (5): Each life being a plan of God, God is responsible…

Prabhupada: No, no, first of all try to understand this. Then talk big, big words. You try to understand Krsna by drinking water. Is it very difficult?

Guest (5): No.

Prabhupada: Then?

Guest (5): But it will take millions of years before you understand Him like that…

Prabhupada: No, because you won’t understand. If you don’t understand, then it takes millions of years. Otherwise in a second. Where is the difficulty? Krsna says, raso ‘ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. “I am the taste of the water.” Prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh. So you see the sunshine. This is Krsna. The moonshine is Krsna. First of all try to see Krsna in… There are two kinds of snakes. One snake is poisonless, and another snake is poisonous. So before catching the poisonous snake, you practice to catch the non-poisonous snake. Then gradually, you’ll be able. Similarly, Krsna is everywhere, and this is the process to see Krsna. That is a fact. When Krsna says, “I am the taste of the water,” that is a fact. So you see this Krsna. Then you will, one day you will realize the Supreme Krsna. There is no difference between this Krsna and that Krsna. This is the purport. [break] …learn something, you should accept the process. If you don’t accept the process, how you can learn? [break]

mayy asakta-manah partha

yogam yunjan mad-asrayah

asamsayam samagram mam

yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu

[Bg. 7.1]

Mayy asakta. You just try to increase your attachment for Krsna. And the process is being explained in the Seventh Chapter. That is the only way. [break] …sun is open to be visible by everyone. And Krsna says, “I am the sunshine.” Why do they say that “I do not see Krsna?” Here is Krsna. And you take the water, taste it. That salty taste is Krsna. [break] …prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh. The prabha of surya is there, and the water is there. You can see immediately Krsna. Immediately.

Guest (5): Why did He create suffering when He could have created a permanent paradise on earth?

Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?

Guest (5): Why did God create suffering…

Prabhupada: No, no, no. That I have already explained. When you infect some disease, you suffer. That is your creation.

Guest (5): Why create the wrongdoers?

Prabhupada: Yes. Because he does not hear Krsna. He must be committing mistake. [break]

Mr. Sar: Ajnanenavrtam jnanam tena muhyanti jantavah.

Dr. Patel: Muhyanti jantavah.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Sar: You see? Already He has said. Nadatte kasyacit papam…

Dr. Patel: Come here.

Mr. Sar: …na caiva sukrtam vibhuh, ajnanenavrtam jnanam tena muhyanti jantavah. So God has neither created sin, nor the merit or punya. You see? It is only ajnanenavrtam jnana, because your knowledge is covered with ignorance, tena muhyanti jantavah, that we, we, we play like jantu, insects. [break]

Dr. Patel: Man is also jantu.

Mr. Sar: No, no, we are… [break]

Prabhupada: …university does not teach anyone to steal, but he, he becomes a thief. Does it mean the university has taught him to become a thief? So he steals and goes to the jail. This is the position. Svabhavas tu pravartate.

Mr. Sar: It’s only the nature. [break]

Prabhupada: …association with the different qualities.

Mr. Sar: That he has taught within, so many adhyayas, not only one. [break]

Prabhupada: …presents you instruction: sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That’s all. If you simply surrender to Krsna, then everything finished. Everything is finished.

Mr. Sar: He is (indistinct) nanyam gunebhyah kartaram…

Dr. Patel: Ah, that… [break] …acaret. Then he goes beyond the gunas.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: Gunatitah. Gunatitah pratyahe…

Prabhupada: That gunatitah, that gunatitah is possible, that mam ca avyabhicarini-bhakti-yogena yah sevate, sa… [Bg. 14.26]?

Dr. Patel: Gunan etan samatityaitan…

Prabhupada: Etan samatityaitan.

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].

Prabhupada: Brahma-bhuyaya… Yes. [break] …only process to take to bhakti-yoga. [break] …Hare Krsna means always remain gunatita.

Mr. Sar: Yes, correct. Because you are always… [break]

Prabhupada: …Krsna. Definitely. [break] …not independently. [break]

Guest (5): …why the Jesus says you offer the other cheek? Which is better? Is the choice of us to be violent or nonviolent?

Prabhupada: Yes. The persons to whom Jesus Christ taught, they were already fighting. Therefore his first injunction is “Thou shalt not kill.” They were already killers. You see? And Arjuna is a gentleman. He was thinking before killing. Therefore he has to be induced, “You kill like this.” But they were already killers. Otherwise why Jesus Christ said, “Thou shalt not kill”? That means that society was accustomed to kill. [break] Yes, that (indistinct) circumstance.

Mr. Sar: Different persons on different occasions. Only the main occasions on which they serve. [break]

Prabhupada: …lence is violence. But Krsna has got two business: paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. So those who are duskrta, there is necessity of violence. Hare Krsna. [break] …surgical operation. Yes. When the…

Guest (6): Yeah, I was disturbed in the early morning. [break]

Prabhupada: …to have surgical operation, if the doctor says, “No, no, no, I have taken to non-violence. I cannot touch with knife,” that is foolishness. [break] …you, one must know. That, you take instruction from Krsna; then you’ll know when one thing should be used and one thing not be used.

Dr. Patel: And that is necessity… [break]

Prabhupada: …create violence out of your own wish, that is not God’s wish. Just like in modern days they are declaring war whimsically, by the political ambition. That is not God’s wish. That is not God’s wish.

Guest (5): But God knows before creating jivas(?) and everything that they will start wars and take…

Prabhupada: Yes, even God knows, that is your creation.

Guest (5): But why should He create them in the first instance?

Prabhupada: That is…

Guest (5): Knowing beforehand that they will…

Prabhupada: That you will not understand unless you surrender to Krsna. You are asking this question for the last so many years, and…

Guest (5): Ah, I have surrendered unto you. Now you explain this mystery.

Prabhupada: I am repeatedly saying that God does not create anything. Just like the same example.

Guest (5): He has created this universe.

Prabhupada: No, no, no, no. You created. Why do you blame?

Guest (5): How I was created, I created this universe?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. So you were created to serve God, but you do not serve God. You want sense gratification. That is your fault.

Guest (5): He’s self-sufficient. He doesn’t need service.

Prabhupada: No, no. Why you are repeating that question like a fool? (laughter) I have answered this. If you disturb in that way, don’t question. I have already, that you created everything.

Guest (5): Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like…

Guest (5): You say He has not created. Now you say He has created…

Prabhupada: No, He…

Guest (5): Contradicting yourself.

Prabhupada: Then because…

Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)

Guest (5): Sorry about that.

Prabhupada: Let me explain it. Let me explain it. Suppose you are ordered by the judge that you should be hanged. So it is certainly his creation, your hanging. But is the judge enemy of you that he has ordered you to be hanged? You have created such thing that you should be hanged. This is the answer. [break] …situation that you must be hanged. But the order must come from the judge. So externally the judge is hanging you. But actually he’s not hanging you. You are hanging yourself. This is the way. [break] …hanged, there is no choice. Is it not? But still, you created the position of being hanged. That is the position. When the judge has ordered that “He should be hanged,” there is no more choice. But who has created this situation?

Dr. Patel: No, no, no. We are always like that. We are in the… [break]

Prabhupada: Supraconsciousness means… If you try to explain. Because there is antyantikam sukham. That is spiritual.

Dr. Patel: Supraconscious state is the spiritual state, samadhi state.

Prabhupada: Spiritual. Yes. [break] …is, that is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Yoginam api sarvesam mad-gata-antar-atmana [Bg. 6.47]. That is the supreme samadhi, always thinking of Krsna. [break] …little by little.

Mr. Sar: Little by little.

Dr. Patel: And we, because we are dull students… (Gujarati) [break]

Prabhupada: Why? Why do they go to the college and university? They could do it independently. [break] Therefore tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Inquisitive, jijnasu, they should go to the proper person who knows it.

Dr. Patel: He is, that… [break]

Prabhupada: …eighth time. No? Thirteenth time?

Dr. Patel: Thirteenth time. Now you must time, describe the fourteenth time because thirteen is a bad number. (Prabhupada chuckles)

Prabhupada: Yes, I have got the translation. All my secretaries, they have got. [break] (kirtana, Acyutananda singing) (end)